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Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

bothsidesofthetable.com

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Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#41

Post by abrown28 »

apsec112 wrote: post #4

"You’re probably disloyal. You don’t have staying power. You’re in it more for yourself than your company." You mean, the company that would cut you loose in about three seconds flat if you became unproductive? Employment is an economic transaction. If you pay me, I will do high-quality, honest work for you. That's fair. If I don't produce, you can stop paying me. That's fair. But if you don't pay me well, or mistrea…

Loyalty is a one way street for most companies. If the company has problems they expect me to suck it up and help keep them alive however the reverse never happens.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#42

Post by mkramlich »

I think both extremes look bad. Somebody who has had 24 jobs in the last 24 months looks pretty bad. Somebody who has had 1 and only 1 job in the last 24 years also looks rather bad -- depending on the field. If it was a librarian and that's what you're looking to hire, great. But I've noticed that as a general rule, in the software field, if somebody stays at the same employer for 10-20 years, that's usually a bad sign. Not always, but generally.

Also think if you were in the software field in the mid/late 90's and you were NOT job hopping, in some sense, you were probably not being very smart. Because there was so much demand for our skills that you could almost always get more money by moving on. Once all the frothy demand died down, yes, it tended to become smarter to stay. But all of this -- all of it -- is just generalizations. People leave jobs for all sorts of reasons which do not or should not reflect badly on them. Family, sickness, education, career growth, moving to a better home or community, etc.

I think loyalty is more important at a startup than at a larger, more established business. But never EVER assume the business will be loyal to you, the employee. If you're lucky, they will, but don't assume that. The whole point of the business is to maximize profit for the owners, and the executive/managerial class sometimes really is just out for their own best interests, even if that means canning employees and/or shutting down entire lines of business that otherwise are staffed with good people doing good work. They look at the numbers, and may often "do what the numbers tell them." Likewise, an employee can analyze matters in the same way. It's fair.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#43

Post by vaksel »

the problem is that companies do not pay a fair wage.

they hire a person, and then if they work like a slave for them...the most they'd see is a 5% raise if that. And in this economy, chances are the company won't even give the people a raise for years. And early on, in one's career, the experience you gain is valued way more than a 5% raise.

I'll give you an example of my friend. He came into his company and ended up with a $12K raise in salary. Pretty much was the top performer there. So the first year he got a 5% raise(max available, and only after 4 months on the job). Second year the market crashed. And the company pretty much slashed the work force. 50% of people were let go. Out of 30 people in his department, only 3 were left. No raises that year. The next year, no raises, more jobs slashed, the rest of his team was let go...and my friend ended up being the only person in the department(company has multiple divisions, so he was just transferred to another department). The next year the company turned around...but once again no raises.

So look at my friend...1. top performer...out of 30 people in his department, the only one who wasn't laid off. 2. more and more responsibilities, pretty much attached to his blackberry. Works nights, weekends from home too. 3. the ONLY person in the entire company who knows anything about 60% of the company's internal software..and no raises. And due to inflation....you can even say his salary was slashed, because it wasn't adjusted with inflation for multiple years.

Now why would anyone stick around with a company like that? Why wouldn't he move to another company for a 20-30% raise? In fact he wants to...but he can't because he is the only person working in his family, has kids and he figures, it's better the devil you know, so he is waiting for the market to turn around...+ he likes his commute.

Now let's say he sticks around for another year, and the next year the company decides to give everyone raises. Do you think the company will be fair, and will give people raises for the 3 years they stuck around supporting the company through the tough times w/o getting paid their fair market value? Or do you think they'll just give people 5%(if that) and maybe a $500 bonus?

Bottom line: Employees will stick with you through thick and thin as long as you pay them their fair share...noone likes changing jobs...noone likes the first 3 months on a new job when you don't know if they want to keep you, noone likes job hunting, noone likes interviewing.

If you don't, you shouldn't be surprised if they feel justified to look for a company that pays them what they are worth.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#44

Post by etherael »

Interesting tack, say something blatantly offensive claiming it will make you a lot of enemies and then use as demonstration of courageous conduct when you are in fact saying the kind of thing that would otherwise make you look pretty damned evil.

The barrage of vitriolic and savage responses here is totally deserved, I can't get over the fact that people like this still exist.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#45

Post by boucher »

abrown28 wrote: post #41
apsec112 wrote: post #4

"You’re probably disloyal. You don’t have staying power. You’re in it more for yourself than your company." You mean, the company that would cut you loose in about three seconds flat if you became unproductive? Employment is an economic transaction. If you pay me, I will do high-quality, honest work for you. That's fair. If I don't produce, you can stop paying me. That's fair. But if you don't pay me well, or mistrea…

Loyalty is a one way street for most companies. If the company has problems they expect me to suck it up and help keep them alive however the reverse never happens.

There are absolutely loyal companies. It's just not the norm.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#46

Post by jey »

_delirium wrote: post #36
jerf wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt there's many employers willing to spend the money it would take to lock someone in. (Because you certainly didn't expect me to agree to that clause for free , did you? No, you're going to pay. And the sooner you lock me in, the more you'd better pay if I can't even evaluate the job before the lockin starts.)

There might be some people who'd take it, since it also means guaranteed employment for the same period: an employer couldn't fire you without documented good cause that'd stand up in court. But I agree that it'd probably make hiring in a startup/tech sort of culture harder, since this isn't a culture where there's that much value put on the can't-be-fired aspect (the job market is good, so you'll just get another jo…

I think you just described Germany.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#47

Post by pw0ncakes »

wrinklz wrote: post #37
pw0ncakes wrote: post #23

Fucking asshole. Almost no one wants to change jobs every 12 months. Looking for work is a pain in the ass and changing jobs is inherently risky. Everyone goes into a job hoping they will work out so well at the company as to have no incentive to leave... at least for 5-10 years. All this is even more true for the best employees, because the number of desirable employers drops off faster than the number of talented p…

My sentiments exactly. And what about the "temporary" employee that can't get hired permanent because the company can't find a budget. This is the wrong economic (and political) climate for this kind of BS.

The bitching about "job hoppers" mostly has to do with "free agents" who end up, for one reason or another, in high demand and who can ramp up their compensation with frequent job moves. Such people are fairly rare and generally don't make it to the top ranks of anything. This style of free agency may have been common in the late '90s, but it's not nearly as relevant now because the expectation that each job move involves a pay raise is gone. For example, Google is not going to pay ex-bankers more than other employees just because they were overcompensated on Wall Street.

In my experience, the worst agents (psychopaths and narcissists who will fuck up the company for their own gain) are almost never job hoppers. Sociopaths understand social power and how to get it, and they know that it takes time. They don't job hop often (and they look before the leap) because they rarely need to, being inherently good at politics and quite capable of getting a pay/promotion trajectory far better than would be available to them if they changed companies (and had to start over, politically speaking) every few months.

The worst corporate sociopath I've ever seen is 28 and has just been named CEO of a company with about $10 million in revenue. He's been there for 4 years, and it's his second job since college. The company will probably crash and burn under his rule.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#48

Post by ardit33 »

This is the 21 st century. People don't get to get married to their jobs, think of it just as casual dating. As long as both of us are having good time, it is all good.

People have been loyal, but they have been paid back with lay offs, either the company goes belly up, or people/projects get cut. Once it happens to you once, you don't do that mistake again. If you see the 'shitty times' ahead sign, some people will leave, and for good reason.

Want to keep them around? Give them an incentive to do so, more equity, more responsibility/better tittle, and promise higher pay when things get better.

But a lot of companies just don't do it, and expect blind obedience. Also they turn blind eye when shitty managers ruin teams, and take action only after half of the team has left already. First guys out of the door are always the good ones.

If a candidate tells you: 'I left company x, b/c my manager was a dickhead, and that I'd rather work somewhere for good people, then compromise my dignity and integrity just to make a manager look good', means that guy actually has a backbone. A weak person will bend and please his manager, even though what the manager is demanding might be damaging to the company on the long run (you see this often in tech. companies).

My experience as a Gen Y, when I started my first job (2002), as an intern, i saw 3 out of 8 team members get laid off. One guy had be there for 2 years, one 6 and one 14! That's a good lesson you get for life. A lot of people that started their careers between 99-2003 saw this first hand. Sorry, but loyalty goes so far.

Expect the average person to stay 1-4 years in one place, with the 3 year mark the good time to find a new job. Any more than that, then they probably have no ambition, unless they are moving really high up in the ranks.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#49

Post by plinkplonk »

Well the article assumes that structuring my life so people like the author can have the warm fuzzies when looking at my cv is a priority for me.

What I look for in a job is autonomy, great co-workers and interesting work. The moment any of these decline, I leave. Why should I stick on to a dead end job because someday some fellow like the author might not like my cv?

Do what makes sense to you at each decision point. If you are any good technically you will never have a shortage of job offers. If you are really good you'll be drowning in them.

Re: Never hire job hoppers. Never. They make terrible employees.

#50

Post by mendriacus »

pw0ncakes wrote: post #23

Fucking asshole. Almost no one wants to change jobs every 12 months. Looking for work is a pain in the ass and changing jobs is inherently risky. Everyone goes into a job hoping they will work out so well at the company as to have no incentive to leave... at least for 5-10 years. All this is even more true for the best employees, because the number of desirable employers drops off faster than the number of talented p…

This is very true. Good job pointing out how the author rambles about "generations" and what's wrong with them, trying to explain why an employee leaving a job he doesn't like is somehow evil and sinful.

The article at part reads like the vague "get off my lawn" ramblings of a bitter elderly man. Good luck attracting top young talent with this attitude.

Another important point is that most startups aren't a good place to stay long term, simply because (duh!) most of them do not succeed. Curious, isn't it?

Statistically, over a 3-4 year period, your startup is 90%+ likely to fail. Why would the best and the brightest stay in a failing project? The captain may be expected to sink with the ship (he often doesn't, and especially his first officers don't), but when you realize that this isn't your company, your "stock" isn't going to be worth a nickel since any meager sale profit will go to the series A investors, and if you don't start sending out resume you're going to be fired in a couple of months - why again are you expected to stay?

Also, many of the best engineers I've known have periods where they changed jobs, and then periods where they stayed at the same job for 2-3+ years. That just makes sense. If you can get hired anywhere, and since you can't really gauge the merit of a company from a few hours of visiting it pre-hire, you're likely to shop around and try to find a place that you like.

Ultimately, as you correctly pointed out, if an employee is truly happy in his current position, s/he will not leave. And it's your job as employer is to keep the employees you want happy and productive in your company (what other task does a manager have, really?). How anyone can ignore this simple fact is beyond my grasp.

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