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The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

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Re: The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

#21

Post by phillc73 »

RandomName2020 wrote: post #18
pilsetnieks wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Soviets/Russians did not kill the native population of the republics on massive scale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor > did not have "sits only for white" in the public transit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes > native languages had equal representation with Russian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

If you are from a Baltic country there is no point to argue with you, because the sentiment against Russia and everything Russian, for whatever reason, is so strong, that people celebrate Nazis as heroes, just because they against Russia. Holodomor was not a genocide against Ukranians, it was ideologically charged event, so it is not comparable to genocide gainst Native Americans, or lynching. "And you lynching Negro…

> Holodomor was not a genocide against Ukranians, it was ideologically charged event

This is still a debatable point, with no clear agreed definition.

"The Holodomor genocide question consists of the attempts to determine whether the Holodomor, the catastrophic man-made famine of 1933 that claimed millions of lives in Ukraine, was an ethnic genocide or an unintended result of the "Soviet regime's re-direction of already drought-reduced grain supplies to attain economic and political goals." The event is recognized as a crime against humanity by the European Parliament, and a genocide in Ukraine, while the Russian Federation considers it part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–33 and corresponding famine relief effort The debate among historians is ongoing and there is no international consensus among scholars or governments on whether the Soviet policies that caused the famine fall under the legal definition of genocide."[1]

However you view it, it was an horrific event where millions died of hunger.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_genocide_question

Re: The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

#22

Post by RandomName2020 »

phillc73 wrote: post #21
RandomName2020 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are from a Baltic country there is no point to argue with you, because the sentiment against Russia and everything Russian, for whatever reason, is so strong, that people celebrate Nazis as heroes, just because they against Russia. Holodomor was not a genocide against Ukranians, it was ideologically charged event, so it is not comparable to genocide gainst Native Americans, or lynching. "And you lynching Negro…

> Holodomor was not a genocide against Ukranians, it was ideologically charged event This is still a debatable point, with no clear agreed definition. "The Holodomor genocide question consists of the attempts to determine whether the Holodomor, the catastrophic man-made famine of 1933 that claimed millions of lives in Ukraine, was an ethnic genocide or an unintended result of the "Soviet regime's re-direction of alre…

It was not directed against Ukranians as ethnos, period. USSR was not a Russian supremacist country. Remember, Stalin, during whose reign Holodomor happened was a Georgian, Khruschev was Ukranian, Brezhnev - Ukranian, Andropov - Russian, Chernenko - Ukranian, Gorbachev - half Ukranian. So most of supreme leaders of USSR were at least partially Ukranians.

Re: The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

#23

Post by rdtsc »

RandomName2020 wrote: post #16
rdtsc wrote: post #12

> They called the Tatars “heathens,” “uncivilized” and “warlike,” evoking old stereotypes about the Turks. That resonated with me. My childhood is peppered with memories of Russians, who were bused in at some point by the Soviet Union to take over administrative positions, telling me to speak a "human" language - Russian instead of my native language (implying I was sub-human). I always remember that and am sad for t…

On the other hand, Soviets/Russians did not kill the native population of the republics on massive scale, did not have "sits only for white" in the public transit, had 15 republics where native languages had equal representation with Russian. Everything is relative.

> did not kill the native population of the republics on massive scale,

You're kidding right? They sent the local village priest to Siberia. Took away the land my great grand father owned.

Sent tens of thousands of other people to Siberia to labor camp. Yeah if you consider shoving them like cattle into unheated train cars in the middle of the winter for a multi-week journey "not kill" then yes, they just happened to freeze on their own...

Re: The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

#24

Post by eps »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #19
drivers99 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's "one that evokes a memory": http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/madeleine That seems to be how it's used in the article and some of the comments here: "Crimea was the ideal site for this post-Soviet reunion, since it was the place where so many children, now adults, had spent their happy summer vacations, flocking there from all over the Soviet Union. For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic m…

This is also the reason that you sometimes find Madeleines flavored with earl gray tea. It's something of a literary joke about Proust, who helped make the cookies famous.

Technically, they are small cakes, not cookies.

Re: The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

#25

Post by myth_drannon »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #20
rdtsc wrote: post #12

> They called the Tatars “heathens,” “uncivilized” and “warlike,” evoking old stereotypes about the Turks. That resonated with me. My childhood is peppered with memories of Russians, who were bused in at some point by the Soviet Union to take over administrative positions, telling me to speak a "human" language - Russian instead of my native language (implying I was sub-human). I always remember that and am sad for t…

The Tatars, 300 years ago, were excellent warriors and horsemen. They would raid the nearby Ukrainian and Russian villages and sell the villagers into slavery. In one year, 1769, they captured 20,000 and sold them in slave markets in the Ottoman Empire. From 1500 to 1700 or so, between 1 and 2 million Slavs were captured and sold off into slavery. The end of the Crimean Khanate is about as distant in history as the R…

That's why when I see photos of the Syrian war, I see so many blond and blue eyed children. I assume they are the descendants of the Slavs(slaves) you are talking about

Re: The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

#26

Post by RandomName2020 »

rdtsc wrote: post #23
RandomName2020 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, Soviets/Russians did not kill the native population of the republics on massive scale, did not have "sits only for white" in the public transit, had 15 republics where native languages had equal representation with Russian. Everything is relative.

> did not kill the native population of the republics on massive scale, You're kidding right? They sent the local village priest to Siberia. Took away the land my great grand father owned. Sent tens of thousands of other people to Siberia to labor camp. Yeah if you consider shoving them like cattle into unheated train cars in the middle of the winter for a multi-week journey "not kill" then yes, they just happened to…

There was atrocities during Stalin times true. However they were purely ideological by nature; not against ethnicities, cultures etc (those were in fact actively preserved) - Stalin himself was from a tiny minority nation of Georgians. USA, OTOH, eradicated native Americans on a large scale, brought slaves with destroying their culture. USSR after Stalin was far, far less racist than USA, up until its fall in 1990s.

Re: The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

#27

Post by frandroid »

myth_drannon wrote: post #25
patrickg_zill wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Tatars, 300 years ago, were excellent warriors and horsemen. They would raid the nearby Ukrainian and Russian villages and sell the villagers into slavery. In one year, 1769, they captured 20,000 and sold them in slave markets in the Ottoman Empire. From 1500 to 1700 or so, between 1 and 2 million Slavs were captured and sold off into slavery. The end of the Crimean Khanate is about as distant in history as the R…

That's why when I see photos of the Syrian war, I see so many blond and blue eyed children. I assume they are the descendants of the Slavs(slaves) you are talking about

Syria is next to Turkey (which is itself populated by a lot of Central Asians; Turkmen are not native of Turkey), which is next to Europe. These two countries and Lebanon are on the morphological boundary between "Europeans" and "Arabs". (This is a gross simplification.)

Re: The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

#28

Post by kafkaesq »

RandomName2020 wrote: post #22
phillc73 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Holodomor was not a genocide against Ukranians, it was ideologically charged event This is still a debatable point, with no clear agreed definition. "The Holodomor genocide question consists of the attempts to determine whether the Holodomor, the catastrophic man-made famine of 1933 that claimed millions of lives in Ukraine, was an ethnic genocide or an unintended result of the "Soviet regime's re-direction of alre…

It was not directed against Ukranians as ethnos, period. USSR was not a Russian supremacist country. Remember, Stalin, during whose reign Holodomor happened was a Georgian, Khruschev was Ukranian, Brezhnev - Ukranian, Andropov - Russian, Chernenko - Ukranian, Gorbachev - half Ukranian. So most of supreme leaders of USSR were at least partially Ukranians.

It was not directed against Ukranians as ethnos, period.

The scholarly debate on this issue is to say the least, very complex. You can't just say "it wasn't directed against Ukrainians as a people, period."

Khruschev was Ukrainian,

Khrushchev was born to poor parents of Russian descent. Anyway, while hardly a saint, he doesn't appear to had much, if any, role in the Holomodor. Chernenko is generally regarded to be of mixed background. As to Brezhnev,

Brezhnev was born on 19 December 1906 in Kamianske in Ukraine), to metalworker Ilya Yakovlevich Brezhnev and his wife, Natalia Denisovna Mazalova. His parents used to live in Brezhnevo (Kursky District, Kursk Oblast, Russia) before moving to Kamenskoe. Brezhnev's ethnicity was specified as Ukrainian in some documents, including his passport, and Russian in others. --WP

The most "Ukrainian" of any of these may have been Gorbachev. But we all know where he sits in the pantheon of "supreme leaders" of the USSR.

Re: The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

#29

Post by kafkaesq »

RandomName2020 wrote: post #26
rdtsc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> did not kill the native population of the republics on massive scale, You're kidding right? They sent the local village priest to Siberia. Took away the land my great grand father owned. Sent tens of thousands of other people to Siberia to labor camp. Yeah if you consider shoving them like cattle into unheated train cars in the middle of the winter for a multi-week journey "not kill" then yes, they just happened to…

There was atrocities during Stalin times true. However they were purely ideological by nature; not against ethnicities, cultures etc (those were in fact actively preserved) - Stalin himself was from a tiny minority nation of Georgians. USA, OTOH, eradicated native Americans on a large scale, brought slaves with destroying their culture. USSR after Stalin was far, far less racist than USA, up until its fall in 1990s.

However they were purely ideological by nature; not against ethnicities, cultures etc (those were in fact actively preserved)

Given the number of, literally, whole peoples picked up, stuffed into boxcars and dumped somewhere halfway across the country (and I bet you can name at least one very famous example from May 1944), and ample evidence of forced Russification in various contexts during the Soviet era -- this is, quite simply, a very weird and bizarre statement to make.

Re: The Kingdom of the Dead: For post-Soviet people, Crimea was a gigantic madeleine

#30

Post by RandomName2020 »

kafkaesq wrote: post #29
RandomName2020 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was atrocities during Stalin times true. However they were purely ideological by nature; not against ethnicities, cultures etc (those were in fact actively preserved) - Stalin himself was from a tiny minority nation of Georgians. USA, OTOH, eradicated native Americans on a large scale, brought slaves with destroying their culture. USSR after Stalin was far, far less racist than USA, up until its fall in 1990s.

However they were purely ideological by nature; not against ethnicities, cultures etc (those were in fact actively preserved) Given the number of, literally, whole peoples picked up, stuffed into boxcars and dumped somewhere halfway across the country (and I bet you can name at least one very famous example from May 1944), and ample evidence of forced Russification in various contexts during the Soviet era -- this is…

Have you ever been to the former USSR? I am not sure about what you mean by "forced russification" - 15 republics of ex-USSR had two state languages one Russian, one local. Almost every product, produced for local consumption had bilingual package (much like in Canada), (industrial goods manuals however were purely in Russian). Parents could choose if they want their children to be taught in their native languages or in Russian. Every document was bilingual. universities were bilingual (and still are in some republics with significant Russian minorities). Local artist, writers and poets who wrote in local languages were kept in a high regard, received bonuses, medals and all that things.

Overall, "forced russification" was about as bad as "forced Anglification" in Canada. Most of the republics of USSR were similar to Quebec in terms of being dominated by the language and culture of the majority.

Have you seen Spanish-teaching universities in the USA? I have not.

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