Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace • Hacker News Board

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#171

Post by dghughes » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 6:33 PM UTC

I know many people say short term use of e-cigarettes have helped them that's great but I have to wonder about those who have no plans to stop.

There seems to be a vocal battle between e-cig users and scientists each having their own claims about diacetyl. It's the famous fake butter compound for microwave popcorn that caused lung cancer in the workers who handled it.

My dad has IPF and COPD two lung diseases from years of working a blue collar job breathing in small damaging particles over time. Sawdust, paint drops, metal from grinding, probably welding fumes, etc. any small particles may seem harmless but over time damage lungs.

What concerns me about e-cigarettes is maybe the damage doesn't appear until 30 from now. Will we see an increase of lung disease 30 years from now?

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#172

Post by snarfy » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

pault wrote: post #157

snarfy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make my own unflavored VG/PG e-juice. I buy the nicotine separately. I don't like the idea of inhaling flavors. I just want the nicotine. But yes, you are correct. A lot of the flavors are not regulated. I recall there was an issue with a carmel like flavor recently.

Where do you buy the nicotine?

Most vape stores sell unflavored e-juice + nicotine. I buy the high strength stuff (24mg) and dilute it to 6mg.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#173

Post by agumonkey » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 6:44 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #158

agumonkey wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought one for my mother because her health seemed lowering. She didn't like it and didn't want to spend time searching for the right device and/or liquid. She had an infarctus (not myocard it seems though) last month, obviously cardio told her no more cigarettes. She was worried about nicotine addiction, I mentioned e-cig, I got angry eyes, borderline saying it was worth than cigs. I understand their concerns abou…

If it helps, the UK's NHS says "E-cigarettes are not risk free, but based on current evidence they carry a fraction of the risk of cigarettes. Public Health England’s independent review of the latest evidence found that using an e-cigarette (known as ‘vaping’) is around 95% safer than smoking." and "If you are a smoker, the best thing you can do is stop smoking now and e-cigarettes can help people to quit." https://w…

I did research the subject quite a lot, for what an non health pro or student can find, including NHS reports. The issue is that opinions evolve. Some high grade doctors were publicly against, then suddenly change, but with a bit of marketing agenda behind.

I wanted to cross check with ecigs "nerd" communities, who are fine grained in their approach of products and spend time discussing issues and qualities of liquids, and devices (combustion properties control matters).

I'm still looking for data about vaporizers (be it water + nicotine, or even THC).

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#174

Post by excalibur » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 6:49 PM UTC

nemacol wrote: post #70

thirdsun wrote: post #14

For anyone looking to quit smoking I can't recommend e-cigarettes enough. As a very passionate former smoker I got off the habit pretty much accidentally and without even trying in a timeframe of about half a year. And it actually started with the intend to find a cheaper alternative to expensive cigarettes without any desire to quit. The key is to steadily reduce the amount of nicotine in the liquid you're using. On…

This is my experience as well. 10 years of smoking analogs lead me to ecigs. Used ecig for 3 years. Went from 18mg to 0 in the last 6 months of me using. Continued using 0 nic for 2 months. Now I am 8 months clean of all nicotine products and 6 months clean of ecigs in general. It was easy because of how gradual it was and that I was still able to satisfy the oral habit of smoking while kicking the chemical dependenc…

Same story here. Smoker for 20 years, been vaping for 2. Started at 18 mg, went to 12, then 9 (made this myself by mixing equal parts 12 and 6). Currently at 6 mg. Already have large quantities of 3 mg and 0 mg juice purchased. When my supply of one strength runs out, I move on to a lower one.

I always make a point of sticking at each level for at least 2-3 months. This way I can be sure I've grown fully accustomed to one step before taking the next. In my view, reducing the nicotine content too quickly would increase chances of a relapse.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#175

Post by jdietrich » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 6:51 PM UTC

nialo wrote: post #41

jrockway wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why the goal is quitting. Nicotine itself isn't the problem with cigarettes, it's just a stimulant and has the usual stimulant effects. If you have high blood pressure or trouble sleeping, probably not a great drug to use. But the same can be said of coffee, which is perfectly legal. https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine is interesting reading. Of course, e-cigarette liquid is not only nicotine, so who knows wh…

For whatever little it's worth, and appologies if you knew this already: Kanthal wire should be generally more 'inert' than stainless at high temperatures. The aluminum in Kanthal forms a tougher and more temperature resistant oxide layer than the nickel in typical stainless steel. (I actually used Kanthal wire sold for DIY vaping things professionally at one point, in a ~1200C heater in vacuum. It's not inert enough…

The metal content of e-cigarette vapour has been analysed; even for relatively crude first-generation devices, the metal content is well within established safe exposure limits.

Stainless steel coils facilitate temperature-controlled vaporisation, which is a crucial advance in harm reduction. Controlling the temperature of vaporisation significantly reduces the production of aldehydes and aromatic hydrocarbons, which are created by the thermal decomposition of propylene glycol and glycerine; these decomposition products are by far the most dangerous components of e-cigarette vapour.

http://www.ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php/resear... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.12942/abstrac...

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#176

Post by vanadium » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 6:52 PM UTC

thirdsun wrote: post #14

For anyone looking to quit smoking I can't recommend e-cigarettes enough. As a very passionate former smoker I got off the habit pretty much accidentally and without even trying in a timeframe of about half a year. And it actually started with the intend to find a cheaper alternative to expensive cigarettes without any desire to quit. The key is to steadily reduce the amount of nicotine in the liquid you're using. On…

17 years of smoking here, and decided to quit when my first child was born almost 5 years ago. The electronic cigarette industry was comparatively ancient at the time, and the devices were...not the best. Anyhow, I kept at it, and within 4 months, had transitioned completely without realizing it. Can't even remember a ceremonial "last cigarette", although I'll still have a cigarette once a year as a harsh reminder.

In any case, I followed much the same road once I switched; I stepped down from 18mg (headaches!) to 12mg, and now I'm at 6mg or 3mg depending on the liquid I have. I can't describe just how much my health has improved over that span as a result.

Also, devices and liquids have _vastly_ improved in the past 4 years, to the point where when I give recommendations to others looking to transition, I don't get cold stares back from failed attempts and cheap devices that kept them from ditching cigarettes.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#177

Post by SOLAR_FIELDS » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

rfrank wrote: post #156

eof wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the ecigaratte subreddits are extremely helpful... they seem to have changed since i was using it (similar story to others.. smoked analogs for a decade, after about 2 years on ecigs I am not vaping or taking any nicotine).. this seems to be the best place: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vaping/ you can get a good setup for ~$50 then the heaviest users will spend like $30/month on juice (most users will spend a fraction of…

/r/electronic_cigarette is the primary ecig subreddit. /r/diy_ejuice is a good resource for people interested in making their own eliquid. can't access the spreadsheet i made at the moment to check, but i pay somewhere in the order of a dollar worth of ingredients for 30ml of juice.

The mark up for juice at most vape stores is obscene, yet still manages to be cheaper than regular cigarettes. $15 for 30 mL at my local store, that lasts me on average 15 days. So it's still roughly half the price for a half pack a day smoker and 1/4 of the price for a pack a day smoker (assuming a very generous $5 a pack).

If you mix your own juice you're approaching savings that are better on an order of magnitude.

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#178

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 7:02 PM UTC

saurik wrote: post #4

jrockway wrote: post #2

The reality is that tobacco taxes fund a lot of the government, and there is no replacement for that income source if people stop smoking cigarettes. Thus the tobacco companies are happy to lobby against e-cigarettes to protect their revenue stream and the government is happy to support them because it's their revenue stream too. It's unfortunate, because it's largely a tax on the poor. The rich can afford prescripti…

I realize this often isn't the case, but the pursuit of taxing specific behaviors is supposed to only be used to fund things caused by that behavior: that way if some people are costing the government money, they pay the price rather than all of society, making everyone's incentives align. If those people stop doing the thing, then the cost is gone and the government should not care that they aren't collecting the mo…

Road damage is proportional to axle weight raised to the 4th power.

In the US, you cannot drive on the highways with more than 10 short tons (9.1 Mg) per axle. If I cram my daily driver to the gills with heavy junk, I might have 0.75 short tons per axle. That heavily loaded cargo trailer is doing 30000 times more damage to the roads per mile than I am, specifically, and as much as 9600 average passenger cars. [0]

Axle weight is not taken into consideration when I am taxed for the roads. Thus tax-avoidance behaviors optimize for the wrong variables.

Drug dosages and adverse health effects are less easily modeled numerically. My concern is that if you tax something without understanding the potential consequences, you may end up doing more harm than good.

[0] http://archive.gao.gov/f0302/109884.pdf

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#179

Post by bcook » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 7:13 PM UTC

cr0sh wrote: post #150

josho wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's a dirty tactic. Especially when you consider that what's bad about smoking is tobacco and e-cigs don't necessarily have tobacco.

e-cigs don't even necessarily have nicotine. I like to vape on occasion - mostly at home, indoors, when I am coding or doing something similar on my computer in my office. My vape of choice is a custom menthol blend with caffeine - and zero nicotine.

Caffeine?! That's very interesting. Got any links about vaping caffeine?

Re: Safer to Puff, E-Cigarettes Can’t Shake Their Reputation as a Menace

#180

Post by rfrank » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 7:14 PM UTC

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #177

rfrank wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/r/electronic_cigarette is the primary ecig subreddit. /r/diy_ejuice is a good resource for people interested in making their own eliquid. can't access the spreadsheet i made at the moment to check, but i pay somewhere in the order of a dollar worth of ingredients for 30ml of juice.

The mark up for juice at most vape stores is obscene, yet still manages to be cheaper than regular cigarettes. $15 for 30 mL at my local store, that lasts me on average 15 days. So it's still roughly half the price for a half pack a day smoker and 1/4 of the price for a pack a day smoker (assuming a very generous $5 a pack). If you mix your own juice you're approaching savings that are better on an order of magnitude…

it's crazy how expensive some juices are, especially when a lot are pretty simple flavor profiles with lots of sweeteners and colorings added in.

once i found some diy recipes that i enjoyed, i made a pair of 120ml, and the cost savings from those two bottles alone covered all the ingredients and equipment (beakers, stirring rods, scale, bottles, etc). diy is especially worthwhile if your device guzzles juice like my geekvape griffin tank does.

diy or die on youtube is a great resource, here's one of the recipes i make regularly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlI8CvT8SCA