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Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

waxpraxis.org

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Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#51

Post by bphogan »

dalore wrote: post #42
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #35

The author makes a compelling case for Flash as a vector of innovation, but he really misses the case against Flash. I haven't seen any critiques of Flash based around the idea that it's "conformist". Rather, the critiques focus on one or more of the following issues: * It breaks web standards like persistent URLs and the back button (granted, there are some workarounds) and eschews native UI elements. * It is inacce…

* A Flash app is trying to be an app so sometimes persistent URLs are useless. That said there are time you want one and Flash can do that, it's up to the programmer, don't blame the technology, the feature is there. * Adobe have a whole section on how to make your application accessible http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/ * Flash the format is an open standard, In June 2009, Adobe launched the Open Screen Project, w…

People who say that Flash is accessible aren't visually impaired. I am. I have not once seen a Flash application that works well enough to be useful in any screenreader I've used. I have been following Adobe's accessibility efforts for years.

HTML5 + JS + ARIA works better now than Flash ever has.

It's fine to make Flash games that don't work with screenreaders. But not websites.

And it's not fine to claim that something is accessible just because the vendor says it is.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#52

Post by waxpraxis »

cosmicray wrote: post #41

If Adobe wanted to advance the Flash 'standard', they should put the specs and standard in the public space. They do not have to open source their implementation, but the bytecodes and file formats should be submitted to a standards body.

The specs are public and unencumbered: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf/

What would submitting to a standards body give them? If they are to continue moving Flash forward with new versions every 18-20mo they can't wait for a standards body.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#53

Post by WiseWeasel »

waxpraxis wrote: post #11
daleharvey wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

html creeps forward exactly because of people using sub standard workarounds like flash, and those times are changing, anyone following what is happening on the web can see that real web development is starting to move at an extraordinary pace. the standards committee dont "design" the internet, by definition to become a specification someone needs to have implemented it, browser vendors are free to implement cool ne…

Right - but when did XmlHTTPRequest first rear it's head? 1999. When did AJAX actually take off? 2005. Six years. During the same time Flash went from a no scripting (well it was essentially programming via madlibs with Flash 4) to ActionScript 3 (Flex 2, the first place AS3 was used, was in early beta at the time I believe). New versions of the Flash Player only take a few months to hit 90%+ penetration rates.

You're forgetting that that was a Flash being developed by a hungry Macromedia. Progress in Flash development today has to bear the weight of Adobe's lethargy.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#54

Post by not_an_alien »

warfangle wrote: post #36
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #35

The author makes a compelling case for Flash as a vector of innovation, but he really misses the case against Flash. I haven't seen any critiques of Flash based around the idea that it's "conformist". Rather, the critiques focus on one or more of the following issues: * It breaks web standards like persistent URLs and the back button (granted, there are some workarounds) and eschews native UI elements. * It is inacce…

Very succinct. Concur completely. Flash has its place (video, games; both of which HTML5 are catching quickly up to). Its place isn't in making an entire, un-navigable, un-deep-linkable, animation-heavy site that takes me ten minutes to figure out how to use. One of the comments on there said, "but check out thewfa! You can't make THOSE websites in html5!" And my immediate, lizard brain response was: "Why would I wan…

Why would I want to? I bet their bounce rates are through the roof, and their return traffic approaches nil.

And because you wouldn't want to, nobody should?

There's a reason why Flash, and Flash websites, exist. Think about it pretty hard. You'll eventually figure it out.

And no, their bounce rates are not through the roof. I've monitored plenty of Flash websites, including FWA ones. Unless 3% is "through the roof" (and this is for a website we've published just a couple of weeks ago, running on the latest Flash Player version), you've just lost your bet.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#55

Post by daleharvey »

waxpraxis wrote: post #43
daleharvey wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people also seem to forget that flash is only "better" for some small definitions of better, there is a reason people hate it and most of them arent political. your "from a pure business standpoint" is exactly what I was referring to, people are far too quickly jumping to quick and ugly fixes like flash that do nothing to help fix the core problems of why web standards are limiting. It takes a lot of "idiots" to push…

What do you mean by "small definitions of better"? Can you do a cartoon with synchronized sound with HTML5? Better is a matter of "does it work for enough of your audience that it makes sense to build it". If you know your audience and can push the technology, by all means go for it! GitHub has exactly that audience. They aren't idiots for going with canvas - for them it's a savvy move. But the Flash option is still…

my point was similiar to you last one, while html is catching up with video / audio / animation, flash is still miles behind html in terms of a lot of basic features, accessibility, adoption, easy of introspection, reliability, performance, I am wary of "html is catching up with flash" arguments because as you said its all situational.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#56

Post by jasonlotito »

not_an_alien wrote: post #46
wallflower wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue it's about the market prodding Adobe to change their flagship Creative Suite tools to fully support HTML5 output. A major reason designers use Flash is because of the development environment. There is a slight possibility that a startup could take on Adobe, but the fact is there are hundreds of books on Adobe CS4/CS3 because they own the industry mindshare.

No, people use Flash because of what it can do as a platform. As "development environment" goes, Adobe's own tools are subpar and easily surpassed by third-party environments, many of them free. Wanting Adobe to create tools that output to HTML5 is like asking Porsche to put their engines in bicycles; it doesn't make any sense. Even if you include all the tentative, beta, untested, -webkit-*, or otherwise suggested f…

Yeah, I don't know about that. I'm not a designer, but my wife is, and loves Adobe. Adobe this, Adobe that.

She's tried other free tools, and always ends up finding things that simply can't be done. And then there is the packaging, all together. Everything works together.

And I can appreciate that. A single suite of applications makes it easier to learn, makes it easier to manage, and makes it easier to train others.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#57

Post by tomlin »

WiseWeasel wrote: post #53
waxpraxis wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right - but when did XmlHTTPRequest first rear it's head? 1999. When did AJAX actually take off? 2005. Six years. During the same time Flash went from a no scripting (well it was essentially programming via madlibs with Flash 4) to ActionScript 3 (Flex 2, the first place AS3 was used, was in early beta at the time I believe). New versions of the Flash Player only take a few months to hit 90%+ penetration rates.

You're forgetting that that was a Flash being developed by a hungry Macromedia. Progress in Flash development today has to bear the weight of Adobe's lethargy.

It sounds like you're just jumping into web development when you say that. Adobe has been faster with release cycles than Macromedia.

Often known as Hackromedia, they were not the powerhouse dev. studio it sounds like you're trying to push.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#58

Post by r0s »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #35

The author makes a compelling case for Flash as a vector of innovation, but he really misses the case against Flash. I haven't seen any critiques of Flash based around the idea that it's "conformist". Rather, the critiques focus on one or more of the following issues: * It breaks web standards like persistent URLs and the back button (granted, there are some workarounds) and eschews native UI elements. * It is inacce…

Just want to add:

* You can't easily save an object for personal use, such as a photo or video.

* No mute button, it's up to the content creator to do that. Is anything on the web more annoying?

* Overuse. Purely a matter of taste, but every time I see a flash site animating content than really should be static I flash back to the days of and . As a web developer I've encountered clients who consider flash the apex of website technology. They don't care how the site works or how it responds as long as it's "on flash".

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#59

Post by WiseWeasel »

tomlin wrote: post #57
WiseWeasel wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're forgetting that that was a Flash being developed by a hungry Macromedia. Progress in Flash development today has to bear the weight of Adobe's lethargy.

It sounds like you're just jumping into web development when you say that. Adobe has been faster with release cycles than Macromedia. Often known as Hackromedia, they were not the powerhouse dev. studio it sounds like you're trying to push.

I'm just pissed by the shit they've turned Macromedia's Mac apps into, namely Fireworks, at least as of CS4. I will reserve judgment on CS5.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#60

Post by jasonlotito »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #35

The author makes a compelling case for Flash as a vector of innovation, but he really misses the case against Flash. I haven't seen any critiques of Flash based around the idea that it's "conformist". Rather, the critiques focus on one or more of the following issues: * It breaks web standards like persistent URLs and the back button (granted, there are some workarounds) and eschews native UI elements. * It is inacce…

Persistant URLs are possible. What Native UI elements are you talking about? Form elements? The same form elements that so many websites change anyways?

My understanding is it has features for people with handicaps. Granted, what accessibility features do recent HTML5 games offer to someone visually impaired? Probably nothing.

Closed, proprietary technology; something neither Windows or Mac users can really complain about. =)

As for superfluous visuals, that's debatable. Blame the designer, not the tool.

As for Flash applications sucking: Trust me, there are probably more sucky HTML/JS/CSS websites out there. =)

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