Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#11

Post by waxpraxis » Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 4:43 PM UTC

daleharvey wrote: post #8

waxpraxis wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but necessary is the key word there. Very little that Flash is used for is necessary, it's almost always about entertainment. HTML 5 is well suited to overtake some of the reasons developers have to use Flash - inline video players and many Flex apps. The HTML 5 technology stack is not well positioned to do everything Flash can do though - and I pointed out three key places where that's absolutely the case. The b…

html creeps forward exactly because of people using sub standard workarounds like flash, and those times are changing, anyone following what is happening on the web can see that real web development is starting to move at an extraordinary pace. the standards committee dont "design" the internet, by definition to become a specification someone needs to have implemented it, browser vendors are free to implement cool ne…

Right - but when did XmlHTTPRequest first rear it's head? 1999. When did AJAX actually take off? 2005.

Six years.

During the same time Flash went from a no scripting (well it was essentially programming via madlibs with Flash 4) to ActionScript 3 (Flex 2, the first place AS3 was used, was in early beta at the time I believe).

New versions of the Flash Player only take a few months to hit 90%+ penetration rates.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#12

Post by pavlov » Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 4:45 PM UTC

daleharvey wrote: post #8

waxpraxis wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but necessary is the key word there. Very little that Flash is used for is necessary, it's almost always about entertainment. HTML 5 is well suited to overtake some of the reasons developers have to use Flash - inline video players and many Flex apps. The HTML 5 technology stack is not well positioned to do everything Flash can do though - and I pointed out three key places where that's absolutely the case. The b…

html creeps forward exactly because of people using sub standard workarounds like flash, and those times are changing, anyone following what is happening on the web can see that real web development is starting to move at an extraordinary pace. the standards committee dont "design" the internet, by definition to become a specification someone needs to have implemented it, browser vendors are free to implement cool ne…

In the bad old days of 1998, HTML was flashing forward along several haphazardly chosen paths, as Netscape and Microsoft were busy creating their own incompatible extensions like document.layers vs. document.all.

I prefer the present situation, where the experimental envelope-pushing happens in the controlled sandbox of Flash, and only the most vital innovations will eventually trickle down into the HTML standard.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#13

Post by Qz » Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 4:45 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #7

What ever happened with that company with the proprietary video codecs that Google bought? There were rumors that Google was going to adapt it and release it as a better open standard than HTML5

"a better open standard than HTML5"

You mean a better open source video codec than Theora? They did and they have.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#14

Post by wallflower » Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 4:47 PM UTC

jeff18 wrote: post #3

It's not about "wanting Flash to die". It's about improving web browsers so Flash is not necessary.

I would argue it's about the market prodding Adobe to change their flagship Creative Suite tools to fully support HTML5 output. A major reason designers use Flash is because of the development environment.

There is a slight possibility that a startup could take on Adobe, but the fact is there are hundreds of books on Adobe CS4/CS3 because they own the industry mindshare.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#15

Post by betageek » Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 4:47 PM UTC

kaddar wrote: post #5

I want flash to die; I just don't want closed platform policies to kill it.

This whole Flash murder/death/kill attitude is boring me to tears - I don't think any Flash developer would disagree that HTML 5 will (eventually) replace the more basic things that Flash does. Advanced multimedia will still use Flash. Ads will use whatever is most intrusive until the end of time so use whatever tools you have at your disposal to block them.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#16

Post by albertzeyer » Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 4:53 PM UTC

betageek wrote: post #15

kaddar wrote: post #5

I want flash to die; I just don't want closed platform policies to kill it.

This whole Flash murder/death/kill attitude is boring me to tears - I don't think any Flash developer would disagree that HTML 5 will (eventually) replace the more basic things that Flash does. Advanced multimedia will still use Flash. Ads will use whatever is most intrusive until the end of time so use whatever tools you have at your disposal to block them.

Also in the areas where HTML5 is not a good replacement, I would still like to see an open alternative over Flash. A closed alternative is just no solution (for me), that's why I also want to see it dying. Once its dead, there will be replacements for it (if there is need for it).

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#17

Post by daleharvey » Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 5:02 PM UTC

waxpraxis wrote: post #11

daleharvey wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

html creeps forward exactly because of people using sub standard workarounds like flash, and those times are changing, anyone following what is happening on the web can see that real web development is starting to move at an extraordinary pace. the standards committee dont "design" the internet, by definition to become a specification someone needs to have implemented it, browser vendors are free to implement cool ne…

Right - but when did XmlHTTPRequest first rear it's head? 1999. When did AJAX actually take off? 2005. Six years. During the same time Flash went from a no scripting (well it was essentially programming via madlibs with Flash 4) to ActionScript 3 (Flex 2, the first place AS3 was used, was in early beta at the time I believe). New versions of the Flash Player only take a few months to hit 90%+ penetration rates.

yes but "noone supports new web standards" is a self fulfilling prophecy, we all know users dont know or care about what is happening under the hood, they arent going to push for ie to support canvas.

as web developers we need to be pushing canvas and font-face and webgl etc and stop running back to propietary plugins every time a font kinda looks not exactly the same on every other machine as mine.

Its pretty unarguable that open standards are fundamentally better than proprietary formats, a single company owning the format the web runs on would be disastrous, instead of opening this gap to push flash into, I think energy is better spent pressuring those involved to help push web standards to a point where flash is not needed, if every website didnt support ie6 tomorrow, next week ie6 would not exist, obviously that is a contrived situation but the fact is its us web developers that need to make sacrifices to make things work better on the users behalf, they cant and shouldnt be expected to do it themselves.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#18

Post by waxpraxis » Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 5:02 PM UTC

albertzeyer wrote: post #16

betageek wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole Flash murder/death/kill attitude is boring me to tears - I don't think any Flash developer would disagree that HTML 5 will (eventually) replace the more basic things that Flash does. Advanced multimedia will still use Flash. Ads will use whatever is most intrusive until the end of time so use whatever tools you have at your disposal to block them.

Also in the areas where HTML5 is not a good replacement, I would still like to see an open alternative over Flash. A closed alternative is just no solution (for me), that's why I also want to see it dying. Once its dead, there will be replacements for it (if there is need for it).

How more open do you want it? You are free to make your own player against the open specification.

Fully open isn't the answer for everything. Flash is the most widely distributed piece of software ever - it got that way by NOT being forked and offering what HTML didn't both in terms of consistency and features.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#19

Post by jrockway » Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 5:10 PM UTC

ableal wrote: post #2

(reply in comments by the author:) Then don’t install flash! That is the degree of freedom that I appreciate. Not so much Flash that bank/shop/gov. sites expect anyone to have it. And not so little that all the, er, uninteresting-to-me stuff now in Flash is rendered in unavoidable HTML5 standards. (Note to self: save a copy of an ancient browser.)

Uh, or just program the modern browser to work the way you like. I don't whine about jpeg or gif or png ads, even though my browser supports them just fine. I simply have my browser not show them to me.

Re: Why I don't want Flash to die (and you shouldn't either)

#20

Post by waxpraxis » Thu, Apr 22, 2010, 5:19 PM UTC

daleharvey wrote: post #17

waxpraxis wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right - but when did XmlHTTPRequest first rear it's head? 1999. When did AJAX actually take off? 2005. Six years. During the same time Flash went from a no scripting (well it was essentially programming via madlibs with Flash 4) to ActionScript 3 (Flex 2, the first place AS3 was used, was in early beta at the time I believe). New versions of the Flash Player only take a few months to hit 90%+ penetration rates.

yes but "noone supports new web standards" is a self fulfilling prophecy, we all know users dont know or care about what is happening under the hood, they arent going to push for ie to support canvas. as web developers we need to be pushing canvas and font-face and webgl etc and stop running back to propietary plugins every time a font kinda looks not exactly the same on every other machine as mine. Its pretty unargu…

Sure - but it's a constantly running cycle, people seem to forget that. HTML 5 will get adopted given enough time - but by that point Flash will have moved on and will do more and do it better. Then HTML will catch up again... etc.

You can push HTML 5 and canvas all you'd like - but from a pure business standpoint if I can reach 98% of my audience with Flash, but only 40% with HTML5/Canvas I'd be an idiot to not choose Flash.

It will be WONDERFUL when I can use canvas to draw realtime graphs and know it will reach 98% of my users. That day is not today and it won't be for some time to come. Now, that being said I and doing exactly that task with canvas for a project - but it's as a backup of the Flash version since the client expects a sizable iPad/iPhone audience.