You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview • Hacker News Board

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#171

Post by avasylev » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:47 AM UTC

balls187 wrote: post #36

Indians of Asian descent are a minority in the US, but well represented in Software Engineering. Further, there are plenty more Indian, Chinese, and Russian female engineers, than there are American (of european, aka White) female engineers. I am less inclined to believe there is systemic bias against women, and minorities, and instead a culture difference between groups who are well represented in engineering, and g…

The fact that there're more Russian/Indian woman I think is because they are from immigrant families where husband is a developer. I'm developer and I met my wife at work back in Ukraine. But if you look % of woman developers in Ukraine, it's the same as in US. A lot of my friends taught their wifes to become QA\developers after they moved to US and wife's profession didn't transfer to US well. Imho, entering IT is not that hard even without prevous experience, you do need to put hours to learn/practice, but unlike many other professions you can do that by just sitting at home and spending couple hundreds on books/video courses.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#172

Post by diyorgasms » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:47 AM UTC

finid wrote: post #162

xorgar831 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this, if you don't have that level of representation it leads to social problems down the line. The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. Democracy only works as much as it can provide an outlet for friction from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system.

The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. That leaves me scratching my head. I know that Iraq is a mess, but how is that because of diversity, or lack of it? And about Iran. There's bloodshed there?

I'm suspecting parent is referring to the Iran-Iraq War, though I may be mistaken.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#173

Post by douche » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:48 AM UTC

stanleydrew wrote: post #109

driverdan wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. IQ and SAT score show nothing about your coding abilities.

I'm not being sarcastic at all, but I can see how my comment could be interpreted that way. I don't have evidence (though I'm sure I could find it) but I think IQ and SAT scores are probably very highly correlated with coding abilities. Coding is just analytical problem solving after all. So I honestly do think IQ and SAT score have almost as much predictive power of your ability as a software engineer as a simple co…

I don't know. I went to an Ivy league college, and though I ended up pivoting and only getting a minor in CS, I was in and around the CS department for a long time. There were a lot of absolutely brilliant people there, in the CS department, that couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag, even after ostensibly studying computer science and programming for years.

I don't know what it is, but there appears to be something intrinsically different in people that really grok computers and those that can't. Flying spaghetti monster knows, there were people that could run intellectual circles around me, but their brains just locked up and started stuttering trying to understand pointers.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#174

Post by qq66 » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:51 AM UTC

Scea91 wrote: post #57

divbit wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a pretty huge statistic, - what also pops out to me is: "stop practicing ". This seems to imply that these technical interviews are skills that you don't really gain on the job. I know that personally would 9 times out of 10 spend time on a cool / beneficial project rather than making time to practice trivia problems.

I've had 4 technical interviews in my life and passed all of them. I didn't practice for them, I just have strong foundations in CS. The most criticism of interviews comes from people who can't get past them.

You don't "just have strong foundations in CS," you also have strong foundations in interviewing, whether you consciously developed those skills or not. The problem is that those interviewing skills aren't really relevant to the job, so they shouldn't be part of the interview.

I once had a candidate who completely bombed the interview, one of the worst interviews I've ever done, but he had a great portfolio. I took the risk and hired him on instinct and he turned out to be an amazing frontend developer who just doesn't do well when he's on the spot standing in front of someone. Years later I recommended him to someone else who was hiring, with the caveat that "he's going to bomb the interview," which he did. The guy called me back and said, "I can't hire someone who did that badly on the interview" and I told him, "do it, you won't regret it, I promise you." He did make the hire, and it predictably went great.

Interviews work well for salespeople because interview skills and sales skills overlap a lot. Interviews don't work as well for engineers because interview skills and engineering skills overlap very little. It's just a large injection of noise into the hiring process.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#175

Post by bmmayer1 » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:53 AM UTC

ucarion wrote: post #165

throwaway420 wrote: post #148

I'm waiting with great anticipation for the politically correct outcry to solve the problem of not enough women being represented in the mining, construction, sanitation, logging, or deep sea fishing industries, or for there be a popular movement to get more men into teaching or nursing where they're also dramatically underrepresented there. Let's see if there's any intellectual honesty here, or maybe there's somethi…

It's not just political correctness. The socially optimal future is one in which anyone, regardless of race and gender, can become a software engineer. Someday, we're going to put in effort to move from our current world to this better future. Software engineering is a highly-desirable, well-paying, forward-looking job and it's still early days. Why not give it a shot? There are of course many PC-police types who can…

Anyone, regardless of race and gender, can become a software engineer right now.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#176

Post by return0 » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:54 AM UTC

xorgar831 wrote: post #154

theoh wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If certain activities have a huge effect on how the world operates, which is kind of the premise of Y Combinator (software is eating the world, etc.) then it's important that the people who call the shots are representative of the people who are affected. This has to happen from the bottom up, since for obvious reasons you can't parachute in "untrained diversity" at a management/strategy level.

Exactly this, if you don't have that level of representation it leads to social problems down the line. The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. Democracy only works as much as it can provide an outlet for friction from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system.

> from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system

i thought it afforded them a proportionate share

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#177

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:54 AM UTC

xorgar831 wrote: post #154

theoh wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If certain activities have a huge effect on how the world operates, which is kind of the premise of Y Combinator (software is eating the world, etc.) then it's important that the people who call the shots are representative of the people who are affected. This has to happen from the bottom up, since for obvious reasons you can't parachute in "untrained diversity" at a management/strategy level.

Exactly this, if you don't have that level of representation it leads to social problems down the line. The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. Democracy only works as much as it can provide an outlet for friction from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system.

[deleted]

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#178

Post by divbit » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:54 AM UTC

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #158

divbit wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it is worth pushing 'pause' on my list of project ideas and just spend a month or so memorizing all the different sort algorithms etc.

There's just three sorting algorithms anyone cares about, and they're not particularly complex. Someone with a math background should be able to pick them up in a few hours at most.

Probably useful to cut it down as much as possible.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#179

Post by markonthewall » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 12:59 AM UTC

ucarion wrote: post #165

throwaway420 wrote: post #148

I'm waiting with great anticipation for the politically correct outcry to solve the problem of not enough women being represented in the mining, construction, sanitation, logging, or deep sea fishing industries, or for there be a popular movement to get more men into teaching or nursing where they're also dramatically underrepresented there. Let's see if there's any intellectual honesty here, or maybe there's somethi…

It's not just political correctness. The socially optimal future is one in which anyone, regardless of race and gender, can become a software engineer. Someday, we're going to put in effort to move from our current world to this better future. Software engineering is a highly-desirable, well-paying, forward-looking job and it's still early days. Why not give it a shot? There are of course many PC-police types who can…

Sometimes I wonder if software engineers are half as smart as they think they are. I can't think of any precedent or similar situation: a corps of highly skilled workers pro-actively sabotaging themselves in order to share the fate of their country's dying middle class: longer hours, shrinking salaries and cut-throat competition for employment.

I am glad that I have some fuck-you money now. Because the prospects as software engineer seem, frankly, rather poor now.

The first step is to stop thinking that this industry - somehow - matters more than any other or that herein lies the future of humanity. Half of that is marketing garbage and the other results from free kool-aid parties that were held after a few of us either built successful companies or made good exit deals with bigger ones. There is an alarming amount of people who are not only drunk, but blind too.

I might be the bearer of bad news, but hear me out: this industry is just like any other. In other words, you are subject to the same dynamics that fuel workers - shareholders dualism everywhere. Basic game theory: you are going to get screwed and that's not funny.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#180

Post by mixedCase » Thu, Nov 03, 2016, 1:01 AM UTC

bmmayer1 wrote: post #175

ucarion wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just political correctness. The socially optimal future is one in which anyone, regardless of race and gender, can become a software engineer. Someday, we're going to put in effort to move from our current world to this better future. Software engineering is a highly-desirable, well-paying, forward-looking job and it's still early days. Why not give it a shot? There are of course many PC-police types who can…

Anyone, regardless of race and gender, can become a software engineer right now.

And in before someone starts ranting about "institutional racism/sexism". No, it doesn't exist in our industry anymore than the rest of the western world, and that's very little; SPECIALLY in a widely left-leaning world such as academia.

The overwhelming majority of the engineering world is welcoming to women and non-whites (I can personally attest to the latter) just like it is of the much reviled "white man", even more at times. As a society we're quick to shame any hint of racism and sexism; anyone who could deny that with a straight face is living in another world.