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You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#151

Post by theoh »

throwaway420 wrote: post #148

I'm waiting with great anticipation for the politically correct outcry to solve the problem of not enough women being represented in the mining, construction, sanitation, logging, or deep sea fishing industries, or for there be a popular movement to get more men into teaching or nursing where they're also dramatically underrepresented there. Let's see if there's any intellectual honesty here, or maybe there's somethi…

If certain activities have a huge effect on how the world operates, which is kind of the premise of Y Combinator (software is eating the world, etc.) then it's important that the people who call the shots are representative of the people who are affected. This has to happen from the bottom up, since for obvious reasons you can't parachute in "untrained diversity" at a management/strategy level.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#152

Post by divbit »

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #95
divbit wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't practice for them, I just have strong foundations in CS. Perhaps my take on things is different since my degrees are in math, so I don't have a bunch of 'canned' algorithms stored in my head, and so in a whiteboard would come up with my own technique, even for possibly basic things like trees / sorting.

I'm sure that even in math you need to know some basic things; for instance every math major knows basic theorems about groups, fields, rings, about real analysis, and so on. It's the same for CS; basic knowledge of algorithms and data structures, and how these can be composed, is what a technical interview tests.

Maybe it is worth pushing 'pause' on my list of project ideas and just spend a month or so memorizing all the different sort algorithms etc.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#153

Post by kls »

bit_logic wrote: post #146

This is because the technical interview has completely degenerated into an arms race. It started with good intentions. It used to be just, here's a problem, try to solve it and let's discuss. And at first it was fine. But then knowing Big-O, algorithm, data structure, etc. became a way to "show off" and impress the interviewer. So everyone started to focus on those to impress the interviewer. Then the interviewers no…

I postulate that false negatives are far more expensive, in a constricted talent pool. We keep seeing the adage that false positives are expensive but honestly if one cannot spot a false positive within 30 days of engagement with that person, then the hiring person should really contemplate their expertise in the field.

I saw a really good write up (I think on here) where they basically did a initial "are you an idiot?" round of interviews and then contracted every person that they thought might be a viable (not good just viable) candidate with a small piece of software for 2 weeks. This amounted to 3 candidates IIRC the TL;DR was that the person they thought was least likely to perform knocked their socks off. The one that crushed the interview asked for more time and then just fell of the radar. The technical code test and trick question interview is a tired fingerprint of the industry. Honestly if one cannot spot technical talent by having a 30 minute conversation with a person, they may want to reassess where they think they are in their own technical and managerial skills, because they may want to reflect the possibility that they are engaging in a weiner waving contest as opposed to an interview, to stroke their own ego.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#154

Post by xorgar831 »

theoh wrote: post #151
throwaway420 wrote: post #148

I'm waiting with great anticipation for the politically correct outcry to solve the problem of not enough women being represented in the mining, construction, sanitation, logging, or deep sea fishing industries, or for there be a popular movement to get more men into teaching or nursing where they're also dramatically underrepresented there. Let's see if there's any intellectual honesty here, or maybe there's somethi…

If certain activities have a huge effect on how the world operates, which is kind of the premise of Y Combinator (software is eating the world, etc.) then it's important that the people who call the shots are representative of the people who are affected. This has to happen from the bottom up, since for obvious reasons you can't parachute in "untrained diversity" at a management/strategy level.

Exactly this, if you don't have that level of representation it leads to social problems down the line. The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. Democracy only works as much as it can provide an outlet for friction from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#155

Post by taneq »

euyyn wrote: post #33
AvenueIngres wrote: post #6

Honestly, the more I read about all those "diversity initiatives", "outreach campaigns" and "pushes to increase H1B" caps - the more I wonder about the intent and motivation of the people pulling the strings and funding the groups fighting so hard to further those causes. My comment is only tangentially related to hiring practices. Maybe age has turned me into a cynic, you can never know for sure, but this seriously…

I think what they mean by "not diverse enough" is in comparison to the pool of candidates. Under the hypothesis that race/gender/ethnicity/sexual orientation/nationality/age are uncorrelated to performance/ability of the candidates, it implies bias in the selection process. Which isn't only an ethical concern, but also a business one: it means they're not hiring the overall best candidates. Of course, there's also so…

That would make sense if they weren't also complaining about the fact that there are fewer [group X] applicants in the first place (and then using that to justify accusations of systemic discrimination).

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#156

Post by vonmoltke »

treehau5 wrote: post #35
burkaman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the next couple sentences explain it well: > It takes a lot of interviews to get used to the process and the format and to understand that the stuff you do in technical interviews isn’t actually the stuff you do at work every day. And it takes people in your social circle all going through the same experience, screwing up interviews here and there, and getting back on the horse to realize that poor performanc…

But this can be literally true for anyone. I tried re-reading it again and again and I am not seeing the distinction. Different people have different reactions to things. In other fields, it's not uncommon for people to submit resumes to 10, 15, even 20 firms and go through 5 to 10 interviews before landing their first "real" job. I think we forget how good we have it in tech relative to the rest of the economy. It's…

People in other fields do not go through this while simultaneously being told how their is a critical shortage of people with their skills. The disconnect is probably very off-putting to people of certain persknalities. Personalities which happen to be over-represented in certain minority groups.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#157

Post by xorgar831 »

xorgar831 wrote: post #154
theoh wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If certain activities have a huge effect on how the world operates, which is kind of the premise of Y Combinator (software is eating the world, etc.) then it's important that the people who call the shots are representative of the people who are affected. This has to happen from the bottom up, since for obvious reasons you can't parachute in "untrained diversity" at a management/strategy level.

Exactly this, if you don't have that level of representation it leads to social problems down the line. The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. Democracy only works as much as it can provide an outlet for friction from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system.

To add to my own comment even, that's why we have the Electoral College vs. a simple majority, it further allows smaller groups to have some say.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#158

Post by Ar-Curunir »

divbit wrote: post #152
Ar-Curunir wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that even in math you need to know some basic things; for instance every math major knows basic theorems about groups, fields, rings, about real analysis, and so on. It's the same for CS; basic knowledge of algorithms and data structures, and how these can be composed, is what a technical interview tests.

Maybe it is worth pushing 'pause' on my list of project ideas and just spend a month or so memorizing all the different sort algorithms etc.

There's just three sorting algorithms anyone cares about, and they're not particularly complex. Someone with a math background should be able to pick them up in a few hours at most.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#159

Post by ksenzee »

Animats wrote: post #5

The big result there is this: "Poor performances in technical interviewing happen to most people, even people who are generally very strong. However, when we looked at our data, we discovered that after a poor performance, women are 7 times more likely to stop practicing than men." On the hiring side, "For the specific case of an online job posting, on average, 1,000 individuals will see a job post, 200 will begin th…

> the key here is to get women to know the odds and keep trying

That's getting hold of the wrong end of the stick. The real key here is to fix the interviewing process, like the article said. Quit with the cargo-cult technical questions that don't mean anything, and just _talk_ to people.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#160

Post by saintwind »

throwaway420 wrote: post #148

I'm waiting with great anticipation for the politically correct outcry to solve the problem of not enough women being represented in the mining, construction, sanitation, logging, or deep sea fishing industries, or for there be a popular movement to get more men into teaching or nursing where they're also dramatically underrepresented there. Let's see if there's any intellectual honesty here, or maybe there's somethi…

Hey look, someone with a pair of testicles in the comments section on HN!
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