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You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#131
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had 4 technical interviews in my life and passed all of them. I didn't practice for them, I just have strong foundations in CS. The most criticism of interviews comes from people who can't get past them.

You sound like a superstar. I don't mean that condescendingly, but I meant that genuinely - assuming you're telling the truth, you're the kind of candidate (based on tech skills alone) that most companies would love to interview and hire. But there are way more jobs and positions than there are candidates like you. And you can't have every company be full of superstars. The argument is for the rest of us, having a hi…

I wouldn't call 4 interviews a superstar. It's really doable, a bit of skill + a bit of luck for the first interviews + a hiring bar set at 'junior' cuz he's young :D

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This addresses a straw man; nobody is saying that there is systemic bias against _all_ minorities, just some. This in particular is the concept of a "model minority". Culture difference cannot explain why women are not well represented in tech. Culture difference can be a part of systemic bias, anyway. Let's say you have some programming job. The interviews focus on questions about frobbing linked lists (which is oft…

> This addresses a straw man; nobody is saying that there is systemic bias against _all_ minorities, just some. What bias occurs against my [Filipino,Vietnamese,Thai,Malaysian,Pakistani...] brothers, that doesn't also apply towards me, an Indian? > There's hard evidence against that -- take India for example, CS students in India focus a lot on solving typical interview questions and less so on other skills...it ulti…

> What bias occurs against my [Filipino,Vietnamese,Thai,Malaysian,Pakistani...] brothers, that doesn't also apply towards me, an Indian?

> What about American CS Students, who presumably don't have a "teach to the test" based education system? They are well represented in tech.

I gave the "teach to the test" example as an example of how culture affects tech interviews and why that's a problem on the interviewer's side, not as a specific example of why Indians do well in the U.S.. Nor was it a litmus test for "people who will do well in interviews", because many other factors contribute.

Though "teach to the test" is probably a part of why Indians do well. In my comment above I explained the mechanism by which the majority white-male-american tech industry unconsciously ends up crafting interviews where white-male-americans will do better. It wasn't about giving an exhaustive set of reasons as to why each demographic does the way it does. But if you want examples, just google "pipeline problem tech" and you'll get more than enough examples in the hundreds of articles out there about why the "pipeline" is a red herring, often with examples as to why various interview practices (or other practices) end up excluding demographics. I gave one example about women, and below I talk a bit more about "choosing the pipeline", but I'm not going to start a discussion where I give an example of systemic bias for/against one group and you ask why it doesn't apply to another group ad infinitum. These biases are complex, intertwined, and not always tangible. There is a simple mechanism as to how they appear, and lots of evidence that they exist (interviewing.io itself has done some of research on this by running voice modulation etc on their platform, but there's plenty more research otherwise too), independently of the pipeline.

Edit: I guess an example that folks might find easier to understand is in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12860397 , it's an unconscious bias against self taught people. Most self taught people are pretty picky in what they actually do, because they're often doing it for fun. On the other hand, if you are a CS student, you will learn whatever is taught in colleges, and follow what your peers do (e.g. practice coding puzzles for interviews). So a self taught person may not be great at coding puzzles because that's not an actual skill that they've ever needed when coding for fun, whereas CS students tend to be competent with these. I know many autodidacts who have had issues with this but are otherwise great programmers. I myself am self taught, and while I did practice coding puzzles, I have felt such biases too.

> Fewer folks that pursue degrees in tech, fewer applicants in the pool.

...

> degrees in tech

and here it is again, you're choosing your pipeline. I just talked about that. There are plenty of autodidacts out there. Plenty of folks (often from a lower income background who cannot afford college, or be able to juggle college and work) who go to coding bootcamps. Plenty of folks who do go to college, but go to less prestigious ones because they can't afford it or they have to go to college near their holes (and they have less mobility because of job/family to support/whatever).

Again, there are articles all over the internet about this. I recall reading about companies which target historically black colleges in their interview process. They don't quota it or otherwise disallow people from interviewing with them; they just go to the colleges for campus interviews. No different from other companies who go to Stanford for campus interviews.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This addresses a straw man; nobody is saying that there is systemic bias against _all_ minorities, just some. This in particular is the concept of a "model minority". Culture difference cannot explain why women are not well represented in tech. Culture difference can be a part of systemic bias, anyway. Let's say you have some programming job. The interviews focus on questions about frobbing linked lists (which is oft…

I agree with 98% percent but I just can't see everyone designing all of their systems on top of unfounded biases against "just some" minorities and that demographics are blameless. They do have nasty effects on each other though; demographics shortcomings confirm bias and bias prevents demographics from alleviating shortcomings.

Remember, it's not intentional. And the biases aren't overt. A lot of it boils down to "I want to hire people like me", where "like me" refers to academic and professional past, but the kind of academic/professional past you have might actually be a characteristic of your demographic without you knowing it.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#135

Honestly, the more I read about all those "diversity initiatives", "outreach campaigns" and "pushes to increase H1B" caps - the more I wonder about the intent and motivation of the people pulling the strings and funding the groups fighting so hard to further those causes. My comment is only tangentially related to hiring practices. Maybe age has turned me into a cynic, you can never know for sure, but this seriously…

Ideally, the demographic breakdown should perfectly match the candidate pool. And again, ideally, the candidate pool should perfectly match the general population. Lacking the actual candidate pool numbers, there's actually two assumptions in play: 1. That the candidate pool matches the general population. 2. That the company is discriminating against this candidate pool, leading to skewed demographics. For some reas…

Aren't you forgetting that different people, even different groups of people, have different motivations? E.g. in general, men like cars, gym and climbing; women like jewellery, yoga and dancing. These are all voluntary activities (well, you could argue that things like gym and jewellery are socially motivated), yet different sexes in average choose differently. Why wouldn't it be the same with careers?

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. I believe you don't see it. Many people don't. How can I help you with that?

You could stop asserting it's true even though you have no evidence. I won't hold my breath.

I don't believe I asked you, but sure, jump on in. Is there a contrary assertion you would like to make and present evidence for? I'm all ears.

I should point out I can't stop asserting it's true, because I never started doing that. I said "I feel [...] I want [...] I think [...] For me, the theory [is ...]". Did you really not understand I was expressing my educated opinion?

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#137

Indians of Asian descent are a minority in the US, but well represented in Software Engineering. Further, there are plenty more Indian, Chinese, and Russian female engineers, than there are American (of european, aka White) female engineers. I am less inclined to believe there is systemic bias against women, and minorities, and instead a culture difference between groups who are well represented in engineering, and g…

> I am less inclined to believe there is systemic bias against women, and minorities, and instead a culture difference between groups who are well represented in engineering, and groups which are not.

And that cultural difference is INDIVIDUAL CHOICE.

When people are free to choose whatever they like, because they aren't scared of starving, which is true in Western countries, they overwhelmingly choose gender stereotypical professions. This is most true in the most gender neutral countries, Scandanavia basically, where the gap is the widest in traditional roles such as nursing. As you go down the GDP per capita list, the gender gap shrinks.

Indian, Chinese, and Russians are from cultures where ANY job is hard to get, and good jobs are very few and far between. Because jobs are scarce and a safe, middle class life requires sacrifice, people in these developed countries are more likely to choose jobs based on pay and availability than what they will enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJVJ5QRRUE is a Norwegian documentary on this, in 8 parts, and it is well worth a watch.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#138

I consider myself a competent developer, but I have no academic background as I am self-taught. While I have had a steady supply of work, because of this, I will most likely never get to work for a big company like Microsoft, Google or Facebook because I wouldn't pass their technical interview. I lack the understanding of core computer science principles and I am okay with admitting that, I don't think it makes me a…

Yeah... FizzBuzz still works. A large percentage of phone screens fails it. It's not meant to be a signal you're a good developer if you pass, it's meant as a signal you're an atrociously bad one if you fail. Most people don't bother to even memorize it, and those who memorize are thrown by slight variations.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#139

Indians of Asian descent are a minority in the US, but well represented in Software Engineering. Further, there are plenty more Indian, Chinese, and Russian female engineers, than there are American (of european, aka White) female engineers. I am less inclined to believe there is systemic bias against women, and minorities, and instead a culture difference between groups who are well represented in engineering, and g…

Are you saying that cultural differences can't be explained by systemic biases? Systemic bias may be the cultural difference, and in this context appears redundant.

As asked elsewhere--what systemic bias exists that targets certain women (white, black, mexican), but not women of other races (particularly Chinese, Indian and Russian)?

Perhaps instead, it's because schools (government?) in Russia, India, and China have emphasized Computer Science, and produce higher number of female grads.

Anecdotally, I attended a tiny engineering school in the midwest, and pretty much all the grad students were international students--women from India and China.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#140

I consider myself a competent developer, but I have no academic background as I am self-taught. While I have had a steady supply of work, because of this, I will most likely never get to work for a big company like Microsoft, Google or Facebook because I wouldn't pass their technical interview. I lack the understanding of core computer science principles and I am okay with admitting that, I don't think it makes me a…

> Microsoft, Google or Facebook because I wouldn't pass their technical interview.

Well, they're far from the ones with the hardest interviews.

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