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You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#121

Post by dreta »

"We believe that technical interviewing is a broken process for everyone but that the flaws within the system hit underrepresented groups the hardest… because they haven’t had the chance to internalize just how much of technical interviewing is a numbers game.”

I understand that people here hate technical interviews, but are we going to skip over the fact that the whole premise of this article is that the technical interview is awful for everybody, but minorities are more affected, because their poor little brains can’t figure that out? It’s ridiculous that you’d ever even propose that some "VP of Diversity and Inclusion” has anything to do with hiring of engineers. Why is this garbage being given any thought on HN is baffling to me.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#122

Post by flukus »

Manishearth wrote: post #91
balls187 wrote: post #84

> We believe that technical interviewing is a broken process for everyone but that the flaws within the system hit underrepresented groups the hardest… Turns out, people who are bad at technical interviews, are underrepresented at companies who use technical interviews to hire employees.

This is their point exactly. "Being good at technical interviews" is not the same thing as "being a good programmer". You can be bad at interviews but good at programming. You can be good at interviews but bad at programming. Turns out that there's a correlation between the former set and certain demographics, because of unconscious biases in the interview process.

I'd like to know their definition of technical interview because it seems to cover everything from fizzbuzz to arcane problems. I very much doubt there are good programmers that can't solve fizzbuzz.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#123

Post by oldmanjay »

imaginenore wrote: post #81
Animats wrote: post #5

The big result there is this: "Poor performances in technical interviewing happen to most people, even people who are generally very strong. However, when we looked at our data, we discovered that after a poor performance, women are 7 times more likely to stop practicing than men." On the hiring side, "For the specific case of an online job posting, on average, 1,000 individuals will see a job post, 200 will begin th…

That is some strange chain of reasoning. Do you really think men are more educated about these odds than women? Is there a secret male only class on this? Maybe, just maybe, women don't want all of that, and we're collectively pushing them (in the name of equality of outcome) to something they don't care for? If you look at the stats, women in more egalitarian societies (Norway, Sweden, Denmark) are much less likely…

Are you not familiar with the notion of men being on the hook to pursue women? That's the connection being offered here.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#124

Post by oldmanjay »

wpietri wrote: post #117
FT_intern wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that diversity in software perspectives/technologies/experiences is important. However I don't see how racial or gender diversity plays a role in that.

Ok. I believe you don't see it. Many people don't. How can I help you with that?

You could stop asserting it's true even though you have no evidence. I won't hold my breath.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#125

Post by mark-ruwt »

aantix wrote: post #113
pj_mukh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mostly empirically provable [1]. Diverse teams come up with better ideas that apply to a larger swath of markets (an immediate payoff for companies). [1]: http://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/organization/our-...

Maybe the larger the body of employees, this becomes more and more the case. But if you're hiring your second engineer on the team? Hire the absolute most productive engineer. Even if that turns out to be a white male. And don't feel guilty.

Sadly, this is the crux of the problem. If you equate increasing diversity with lowering the bar, you're missing the point.

https://42hire.com/the-big-lie-tech-companies-and-diversity-...

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#126

Post by [deleted] »

zigzigzag wrote: post #90
pzh wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I remember reading that Google and Amazon engineers have an average time on the job of about 1 year. It seems most people just want to work there so they can put it on their resume, or maybe once they pass the interview process, they are confronted with the reality that not all jobs there are so glamorous--e.g. people probably imagine they'd be working side by side with Jeff Dean and his likes, but then the…

Without a doubt that stat is because these companies have grown so fast. It's not that people leave after a year, it's that they have added tons of engineers in the last year (and have done so repeatedly for the last few years). I worked at Google. Turnover was really low. 10 year average stay doesn't sound unreasonable for me if you select only the employees that have left.

[deleted]

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#127

Post by cassowary »

FT_intern wrote: post #80
golergka wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about biology, but it's certainly ingrained culturally. As a man, I'm constantly trained by the society to overcome rejection, and a typical dating pattern of men approaching women is a major part of this. However, I wouldn't use words like "patriarchy" here because I honestly think that this assymetry hurts both genders equally, just in different ways.

Men have the disadvantage (or advantage) of facing rejection much more often than women. Whether men overcome the rejection and become more capable is debatable, although it's clear men are more accustomed to being rejected.

"It's clear men are more accustomed to being rejected."

No it's not. Do you have any evidence for your claim? or just anecdote and stereotype?

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#128

Post by user5994461 »

Manishearth wrote: post #91
balls187 wrote: post #84

> We believe that technical interviewing is a broken process for everyone but that the flaws within the system hit underrepresented groups the hardest… Turns out, people who are bad at technical interviews, are underrepresented at companies who use technical interviews to hire employees.

This is their point exactly. "Being good at technical interviews" is not the same thing as "being a good programmer". You can be bad at interviews but good at programming. You can be good at interviews but bad at programming. Turns out that there's a correlation between the former set and certain demographics, because of unconscious biases in the interview process.

Doesn't have to be the same thing, it just has to be correlated enough.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#129

Post by tuxidomasx »

I think the conversation about diversity in tech often overlooks a key metric, which is the percentage of tech companies that are founded by and/or employ a majority of minorities.

For example, if its accurate to say that over 88% of US tech companies are founded by white people and employ mostly white people, then a diversity issue exists in the number of tech companies founded by black people and employing mostly black people.

As a black american, it's interesting that the approach to tech diversity so often revolves around the concept of hiring minorities to help fulfil the goals of existing (mostly white) companies.

An approach that feels more altruistic to me would be to empower minorities to build their own tech companies to solve their own types of problems, and hire people who are a good 'culture fit.'

Instead of diversifying employees, diversify the companies and let them naturally attract diverse employees.

Re: You can’t fix diversity in tech without fixing the technical interview

#130

Post by DigitalSea »

I consider myself a competent developer, but I have no academic background as I am self-taught. While I have had a steady supply of work, because of this, I will most likely never get to work for a big company like Microsoft, Google or Facebook because I wouldn't pass their technical interview. I lack the understanding of core computer science principles and I am okay with admitting that, I don't think it makes me a bad developer or inferior to my peers who have computer science degrees. Most developers I know envy the fact I have no student debt and said if they could do it over again, they would go the self-taught route.

Technical interviews are broken because they favour developers fresh out of college or with academic backgrounds. Not every development task is a coding problem or puzzle, rarely do you ever need to write your own algorithm implementation in real world situations. The times you do, most developers (even the intelligent ones) will Google. My problem solving ability is decent enough I am at a senior level and always complete what is asked of me, but give me a code golf/coding puzzle and unrealistic constraints like only being able to solve it on a whiteboard? I will fail. Ask me to solve problems on sheets of paper as quick as possible? I will fail.

Give me a laptop, an IDE and ask me to build something. Better yet, sit me down with one of the developers in your team, give me a simple Jira task and ask me to help solve it pair-programming style. I would rather hire a developer who can get things done opposed to being able to solve a non-real world programming puzzle I found on Google. Interviews seem to forgo the highly acknowledged fact that developers rely on Google/StackOverflow than companies care to admit.

Problem solving is one percentage of the hiring equation, being a great developer also requires patience, cooperation, understanding and communication. I think above anything else, a developer who is a good communicator is a dream combination. I would take communication skills over coding puzzle solving skills any day of the week.

Even the much beloved FizzBuzz test is a scam. Any developer can memorize a FizzBuzz implementation 10 minutes prior to the interview. I never understood how this was a valid metric for determining suitability of a candidate, when candidates have come to expect a FizzBuzz test coming up. Maybe it worked in 1999, but not in 2016.

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