In Greece, Property Is Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#251

Post by return0 » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:30 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #233

kkapelon wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents hous…

So as somebody NOT from Greece (from the US in fact).. I have always had to pay tax on any property I own. If someone died and I got their property.. I would need to pay tax. Not sure how that is "unexpected"? If the tax was more than I could afford, I would sell it. If I liked the place, maybe I would move there.

Different perceptions - Greek market was and still largely is heavily regulated and closed. It will take many years for people to adapt to a free-er market. It doesn't help that government does not communicate it to people. For example, there was no real property tax in greece. Then after the crisis they instituted an "Emergency tax" on property that they promised "would be just one-off". Of course it became a two-off, 3-off etc. Greek govt. and the electorate have been playing cat and mouse for decades.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#252

Post by return0 » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #247

return0 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it is. Greece is still a very safe country with excellent climate. Avoid athens, the overcrowded center and heavily-hit by the crisis. You will find the cost of living is very cheap for a european country (provided that you have your own source of income as you said- don't rely on finding a job here)

Sounds interesting. I can, but it's not much fun living in a country where very little is happening. Is there still stuff happening in Greece, or has the economy been thoroughly fucked up by the austerity measures? At first glance, for example, taxes still look low compared to other EU countries. I have a wealthy friend in the UK, and I want to a party there once thrown by some wealthy greek shipping magnates. They h…

Hey we are not all shipping magnates! For a greek at this point, the taxes are extremely heavy, because you have to add mandatory insurance costs. The current govt. has chosen taxes instead of public sector cuts, so greece is bad for business at the moment. Local businesses are looking to neighboring low-tax countries for relief (bulgaria/cyprus).

Depends on what is your definition of fun living. The islands are certainly a fun place in the long summer. Greeks are still fun-loving, and our cafes are packed despite the crisis. No it's not a grim place, if thats what u are asking.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#253

Post by atmosx » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

return0 wrote: post #237

atmosx wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have no way to challenge the assessor? No you have not. The tax is based on a tag price the gov puts on your property which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding). Greece is a more like a dormitory these days. It's a miracle people still survive here, but economic activity is virtually dead and indirect taxation is still on the raise.

> which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding Given that the values have been recently reassessed [2016], i would like to know where these 10x and 50x values are. Not disputing you, but curious to know.

> Given that the values have been recently reassessed [...]

MY experience is from a bid in 2012-13. But out of curiosity, how would you asses this[1] situation? It's a random article I just googled...

http://www.zougla.gr/greece/article/kalite-na-plirosi-enfia-...

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#254

Post by charlesdm » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:43 PM UTC

return0 wrote: post #252

charlesdm wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds interesting. I can, but it's not much fun living in a country where very little is happening. Is there still stuff happening in Greece, or has the economy been thoroughly fucked up by the austerity measures? At first glance, for example, taxes still look low compared to other EU countries. I have a wealthy friend in the UK, and I want to a party there once thrown by some wealthy greek shipping magnates. They h…

Hey we are not all shipping magnates! For a greek at this point, the taxes are extremely heavy, because you have to add mandatory insurance costs. The current govt. has chosen taxes instead of public sector cuts, so greece is bad for business at the moment. Local businesses are looking to neighboring low-tax countries for relief (bulgaria/cyprus). Depends on what is your definition of fun living. The islands are cert…

Cool. Where would you say the best places are to live?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#255

Post by Mz » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:48 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #121

return0 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not wrong. Greece experienced a property bubble that is bursting painfully slowly. Homeownership is high in greece; it's part of the culture and successive governments protected it despite its heavy cost as a populist measure (e.g. by instituting laws that disallowed foreclosures). The bubble has not yet burst completely, that's why rent prices are very cheap.

Is it worth moving to Greece at this point if you have sufficient (ways of generating) capital to sustain your lifestyle? Or would that be a fools errand given the state of the economy?

If you have an outside source of income, moving someplace with distressed prices can be a great idea if a) there are other draws beyond the low cost (such as great weather or something else you value) and b) the distress is not to the level of making the area excessively dangerous for you.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#256

Post by return0 » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:48 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #253

return0 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding Given that the values have been recently reassessed [2016], i would like to know where these 10x and 50x values are. Not disputing you, but curious to know.

> Given that the values have been recently reassessed [...] MY experience is from a bid in 2012-13. But out of curiosity, how would you asses this[1] situation? It's a random article I just googled... http://www.zougla.gr/greece/article/kalite-na-plirosi-enfia-...

Thats really a fringe case of some long-forgotten property in a no-construction zone. The solution is to disown the property. It's not a comparison of real price assessment

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#257

Post by rcthompson » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:48 PM UTC

Funny to see so many commenters here making suggestions (e.g. "just sell the property") that assume Greece has a well-functioning economy, when the problem is that Greece doesn't have a well-functioning economy.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#258

Post by return0 » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:50 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #250

return0 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding Given that the values have been recently reassessed [2016], i would like to know where these 10x and 50x values are. Not disputing you, but curious to know.

Is this data in Greece public the same as it is in the US? Can we obtain and aggregate this data? For science!

It is, but bit hard to parse:

http://www.et.gr/index.php/82-2013-01-30-08-00-00/204-4500

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#259

Post by linkregister » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:52 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #238

tormeh wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>shutting off all forms of payment in the entire country indefinitely Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit. That Greece has made itself completely dependent on emergency liquidity from the ECB is the country's own silly fault . Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. That said I don't think the current situation makes much sense. The odds are high…

As a Greek I'm aghast by fellow know-it-all Greeks who bought in in this we deserver what we're going through . And it's not just random commentators on HN, it is an entire political class. > Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. G.Papandreou who campaigned with the MOTO "there are enough money for everyone", went around Europe calling Greeks crooked by default. As if every…

> I don't believe that there is another country's population, who has received so much systemic brainwash into believing that it is it's own fault.

The German people have had a significant amount of education about their culpability in the events of the second World War.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#260

Post by jacalata » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:53 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #218

antisthenes wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of all the scenarios you posted, this is actually the easiest to solve: > 3) I am 75 years old living with my wife who is 70 years old in the house that we bought in 1950. We are both retired farmers. Our pension is 500 euros in total. In 1950 the area we selected for our house turned out to be a popular one (in 1950 it was just an empty field). Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (beca…

I want to make explicit the sentiment that I think underlies some of the comments here. For much of Western human existence, families could own, inherit, and stay in one place for generations. But now, catastrophic value inflation, property taxes, eminent domain, etc. threaten that expectation of stability. It shouldn't be surprising that people who don't value a migratory lifestyle are upset by being forced to aband…

> For much of Western human existence, families could own, inherit, and stay in one place for generations.

In the scenario you are responding to, the family isn't trying to stay in the one house for the next generation - it's occupied entirely by a retired couple with no income.