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In Greece, Property Is Debt

nytimes.com

241–250 of 302 posts

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#241
I found the OECD's executive summary for Greece (2016) for context:

#The economy is gradually recovering from a deep recession but high social costs persist

Following a deep and prolonged depression, during which real GDP fell by 26%, the economy is projected to grow again in the course of 2016 and 2017, but a full recovery will take time. Competitiveness has improved markedly, but exports and investment remain weak. The unemployment rate, at 25%, is still high despite a moderate decline since 2013. The depression has pushed many people into poverty and income inequality has increased. Tax and benefit reforms have materially improved the budget position, but the burden of adjustment has been uneven and public debt is still very high. The banking sector has recently been recapitalised, but credit creation remains weak due to the high burden of non-performing loans on banks’ balance sheets, and reduced demand for loans.

#Significant structural reforms have been legislated, but their mix and implementation were uneven

Greece has implemented significant labour market reforms, but progress has been less on reducing oligopoly power, the regulatory burden and weaknesses in the public administration, due to administrative capacity constraints, little ownership of past reform programmes and vested interests. The depressed economy, lack of bank finance and remaining structural impediments are holding back the modernisation of the Greek economy.

#Stronger exports and investment are a key to sustained recovery

Remaining structural barriers and administrative burdens raise costs of exporting. Greece’s integration in global value chains is low due to insufficient investment in human and knowledge-based capital, low inward FDI, the small size of enterprises and the manufacturing sector and weak infrastructure. Network industries have been liberalised but the still restrictive regulation of the energy and transport sectors reduces trade in both goods and services.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#242
post #137

Gee, in the US, all property is debt as well. (Property tax.) So you don't really own your property--if you fail to pay, you will ultimately lose possession. http://taxation.lawyers.com/property-tax/when-you-cant-pay-y...

There are tax exempt properties like farm land and of course property owned by non profits. Not sure why countries like india leave property tax on the table.

India does have property tax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax#India

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#243
Half of Europe has dreamworld house prices which are unsustainable. As the boomers die out, the demographic changes are going to annihilate the fools today, taking out 450k for a bedsit. I have to say, I am looking forward to the peasants-turned-property-magnates getting a rude awakening :)

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of all the scenarios you posted, this is actually the easiest to solve: > 3) I am 75 years old living with my wife who is 70 years old in the house that we bought in 1950. We are both retired farmers. Our pension is 500 euros in total. In 1950 the area we selected for our house turned out to be a popular one (in 1950 it was just an empty field). Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (beca…

I want to make explicit the sentiment that I think underlies some of the comments here. For much of Western human existence, families could own, inherit, and stay in one place for generations. But now, catastrophic value inflation, property taxes, eminent domain, etc. threaten that expectation of stability. It shouldn't be surprising that people who don't value a migratory lifestyle are upset by being forced to aband…

When black people are forced out by rising property taxes apparently it's fine but God forbid the same thing happen to old white people, Prop 13 gets passed in 5 ms then.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#245

I live in Greece and things are bad but as a matter of fact, the real problem is that we ,the Millennials, feel that we're screwed because we compare ourself with our parents. Our parents and our politicians really scammed the whole europe into believing that we have a strong economy but the truth is that everyone avoided paying taxes, they got huge loans that could never pay of and our politicians where really corru…

Went to Crete a few years ago and was surprised by the number of (what seemed residential) buildings with unfinished roof/terrace, but otherwise being used and perfectly normal. You could see the concrete pillars with the steel bars coming out on top. Imagine it is some kind of way to dodge taxation since it is still considered unfinished? Have also read Michael Lewis' "Boomerang", which also has a lot of similar ane…

How many years ago? You might be experiencing the property boom - everything under construction with cheap loans from a careless ECB. It's not a way to dodge taxes. Many of those constructions were finished, others stayed halfway. What many of them have in common is they are looking for buyers.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#246
post #35

Some examples of inheritance would be either old houses at the village or small olive groves. Many old houses at the village are derelict and the small olive groves have little financial value. The olive groves are generally small because they have been divided among the children through the generations. If an olive grove is not tended for 5-10 years, it becomes unusable and costly to fix.

Olive oil has relatively good price and is very easily exportable. An olive grove is a profitable investment, unlike a house/flat.

Also olive trees are very easy to cultivate, very durable and last for centuries! disagree strongly on this.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it worth moving to Greece at this point if you have sufficient (ways of generating) capital to sustain your lifestyle? Or would that be a fools errand given the state of the economy?

Sure it is. Greece is still a very safe country with excellent climate. Avoid athens, the overcrowded center and heavily-hit by the crisis. You will find the cost of living is very cheap for a european country (provided that you have your own source of income as you said- don't rely on finding a job here)

Sounds interesting. I can, but it's not much fun living in a country where very little is happening. Is there still stuff happening in Greece, or has the economy been thoroughly fucked up by the austerity measures? At first glance, for example, taxes still look low compared to other EU countries.

I have a wealthy friend in the UK, and I want to a party there once thrown by some wealthy greek shipping magnates. They had sold their shipping empire for billions in 2007 and bought it back in 2012 for hundreds of millions. They left the country shortly afterwards. Have all the wealthy greeks left the country? Or is there still an opportunity to do business?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of all the scenarios you posted, this is actually the easiest to solve: > 3) I am 75 years old living with my wife who is 70 years old in the house that we bought in 1950. We are both retired farmers. Our pension is 500 euros in total. In 1950 the area we selected for our house turned out to be a popular one (in 1950 it was just an empty field). Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (beca…

I want to make explicit the sentiment that I think underlies some of the comments here. For much of Western human existence, families could own, inherit, and stay in one place for generations. But now, catastrophic value inflation, property taxes, eminent domain, etc. threaten that expectation of stability. It shouldn't be surprising that people who don't value a migratory lifestyle are upset by being forced to aband…

Tough shit for the Western human existence then, I guess. Not sure why I'm expected to feel sympathy for those who enjoyed this brief and anomalous period in human history by luck of their heritage and place of birth.

> But now, catastrophic value inflation, property taxes, eminent domain, etc. threaten that expectation of stability.

If you enjoy value inflation of your assets, be prepared to pay appropriate property taxes that go hand in hand with that. Not sure why those people expect to have their cake and eat it to, at the cost of all the other taxpayers.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#249
post #230
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The official answer to this that it would cause uncertainty regarding future decisions. And I won't even start with devaluation, the geopolitical position of Greece or the chaos on the streets.

Uncertainty would be less of a problem if the ECB's stated goal would be to defend the money supply in the Eurozone through mass distribution.

There are many uncertainties. Like the one regarding the fact that you can get an absolution from the ECB if you cause enough havoc. Or the one where you shouldn't invest in any country that may even smell slightly endangered (which would actually cause that north/south europe contruct). On the other hand it may even lure in even more "evil" investments with the right insurance. All this with a fast devaluating Euro? Sounds pretty bad to me.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#250
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have no way to challenge the assessor? No you have not. The tax is based on a tag price the gov puts on your property which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding). Greece is a more like a dormitory these days. It's a miracle people still survive here, but economic activity is virtually dead and indirect taxation is still on the raise.

> which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding Given that the values have been recently reassessed [2016], i would like to know where these 10x and 50x values are. Not disputing you, but curious to know.

Is this data in Greece public the same as it is in the US? Can we obtain and aggregate this data? For science!
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