In Greece, Property Is Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#231

Post by 1337biz » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 8:50 PM UTC

akytt wrote: post #192

kkapelon wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents hous…

You sell the house. You have invested your money well, your property has increased in value. Congratulations! Now pay a bit of taxes to support the people who have not been as fortunate and stop complaining. Your property taxes are actually lower than in other countries by a margin, how can they be a problem, then? Quite frankly I think the notion of actually having to pay taxes has not been there for decades and it…

Those people who have worked their whole life their butt of just to finnally buy a home for their family, are certainly greatful for your advice.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#232

Post by return0 » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 8:53 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #218

antisthenes wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of all the scenarios you posted, this is actually the easiest to solve: > 3) I am 75 years old living with my wife who is 70 years old in the house that we bought in 1950. We are both retired farmers. Our pension is 500 euros in total. In 1950 the area we selected for our house turned out to be a popular one (in 1950 it was just an empty field). Government passes the law and our house has a value of 500.000 (beca…

I want to make explicit the sentiment that I think underlies some of the comments here. For much of Western human existence, families could own, inherit, and stay in one place for generations. But now, catastrophic value inflation, property taxes, eminent domain, etc. threaten that expectation of stability. It shouldn't be surprising that people who don't value a migratory lifestyle are upset by being forced to aband…

Well to be honest most of these houses were build in the past 3 decades from the parents so their children have a ready-made home for them. We had a property boom in greece that was fueled by dirt-cheap loans from easy ECB money. Now the loans turned red, people don't have jobs, taxes have skyrocketed. It's a mess. But somehow the market has to move. Standing still is not a solution.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#233

Post by brianwawok » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 8:56 PM UTC

kkapelon wrote: post #153

nugget wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the solution in either case be to sell the house and move somewhere you can find a job?

Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents hous…

So as somebody NOT from Greece (from the US in fact).. I have always had to pay tax on any property I own.

If someone died and I got their property.. I would need to pay tax. Not sure how that is "unexpected"? If the tax was more than I could afford, I would sell it. If I liked the place, maybe I would move there.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#234

Post by honkhonkpants » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 8:58 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #212

nugget wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody would buy the house If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k? Real assets are usually sale-able, albeit perhaps for less than the owner thinks the asset is worth. > Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. Since Greece is still in the EU, you can move to any member country right? UK, Germa…

I think the answer to your first question is "if you put it up at public auction tomorrow, that would be totally illegal." There are huge legal barriers to property sales, including requirements for energy audits and certification that the construction is wholly legal - which is probably isn't. Just like in the US, a great many safe and livable Greek properties violate zoning laws. Real assets are salable, but in thi…

Zoning laws in the US don't govern anything other than the initial certificate of occupancy in most US states. They are irrelevant for subsequent sales.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#235

Post by return0 » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 8:59 PM UTC

nugget wrote: post #159

kkapelon wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents hous…

> Nobody would buy the house If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k? Real assets are usually sale-able, albeit perhaps for less than the owner thinks the asset is worth. > Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. Since Greece is still in the EU, you can move to any member country right? UK, Germa…

> Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership

A large part of our electorate thinks like that, and thus came Syriza (Syriza may be a household name, but not everyone knows that it stands for "Coalition of radical-left parties"). Yet when push comes to shove syriza turned instantly back into austerity. The electorate acted like an angry teenager. Magic bullets don't exist.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#236

Post by crdoconnor » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:02 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #229

crdoconnor wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why is it that these people are nice and kind when they finance your government spending for decades but turn into facist greedy bastards when they come asking for their money back? They're not trying to get their money back. They're simply taking the reins of power and threatening economic catastrophe if they're disobeyed. It ought to be obvious to anybody with a functioning brain that Greece is not paying down its…

Well, that's how it goes when you take money from someone in order to keep from disaster. They get a say in how things go thereafter. You write this as if some Greek politicians just woke up one morning and decided to hand over sovereignty to foreigners. That's not how it happened. Greece was forced into it, because Greece had to have foreign money in order to survive. It's been known for 3000 years what the conseque…

>It's been known for 3000 years what the consequences of that situation are - the borrower becomes the lender's slave

Didn't think I'd ever see slavery - debt or otherwise - defended on HN.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#237

Post by return0 » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:03 PM UTC

atmosx wrote: post #224

jfoutz wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no way to challenge the assessor? Here (U.S.) you could put together a book of 50-100 similar houses and their sale prices. Take that to court and have the house reassessed. The US isn't corruption free, but in my limited experience, it's hard to have an assessment wildly out of line with reality, 3x would be hard to justify.

> You have no way to challenge the assessor? No you have not. The tax is based on a tag price the gov puts on your property which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding). Greece is a more like a dormitory these days. It's a miracle people still survive here, but economic activity is virtually dead and indirect taxation is still on the raise.

> which might be 10x more than the actually market value (sometimes even 50x, not kidding

Given that the values have been recently reassessed [2016], i would like to know where these 10x and 50x values are. Not disputing you, but curious to know.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#238

Post by atmosx » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:04 PM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #204

crdoconnor wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now. That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity. In both cases it wasn't even as if the parties didn't want to end austerity but when they tried they were basically threatened…

>shutting off all forms of payment in the entire country indefinitely Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit. That Greece has made itself completely dependent on emergency liquidity from the ECB is the country's own silly fault . Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. That said I don't think the current situation makes much sense. The odds are high…

As a Greek I'm aghast by fellow know-it-all Greeks who bought in in this we deserver what we're going through. And it's not just random commentators on HN, it is an entire political class.

> Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect.

G.Papandreou who campaigned with the MOTO "there are enough money for everyone", went around Europe calling Greeks crooked by default. As if every Greek is a crooked and tax-evading[1] citizen. Then came along Pagkalos of course, but the same MOTO is rhetoric is re-played time and again by politicians, just to name a few: A. Georgiadis at "Enikos", A. Loverdos before him, E. Venizelos and many others have replayed this recurring theme.

I don't believe that there is another country's population, who has received so much systemic brainwash into believing that it is it's own fault.

You want to tell me that when the Minister of Finance tells me that our banks are safe (2008), you would expect from the 60-year old public worker to understand that he is lying and believe otherwise? I don't.

So again to answer your question:

> Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect.

Fuck no! It's easy to be pissed with the prior generation but it is a simplistic and stupid approach.

> Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit.

I won't enter into details because I'm bored. I've have written thousands of word regarding Greece, the EU and ECB here on HN and honestly I'm tired. The ECB was created as an apolitical instrument and it's been since then used time and again (Ireland, Greece, Portugal) as a political tool by French and German politician to save their bankrupt banks.

Do you have any idea what is really happenning here[2] ? It's not about Greece, so hatred should not cloud your judgement. If you don't know what is happening in this instance, please gets your fact STRAIGHT please.

ADDENDUM: The only politician who got it right about the ECB was M. Thatcher in her last speech in the house of commons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZf7cLhPG8 - it's outstanding how a right-wing, libertarian politician understood, what French, Greek, Italian, etc. Socialists failed to see...

[1] The problematic relationship between Greek citizens and the Greek goes back to 1821 and it's almost exclusively the state's fault. There are cultural and historical reasons why this is, however, the state still today sees the average as tax-evader a priori.

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x7FTH_ZIsU

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#239

Post by crdoconnor » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:09 PM UTC

tormeh wrote: post #204

crdoconnor wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now. That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity. In both cases it wasn't even as if the parties didn't want to end austerity but when they tried they were basically threatened…

>shutting off all forms of payment in the entire country indefinitely Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit. That Greece has made itself completely dependent on emergency liquidity from the ECB is the country's own silly fault . Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes, they're responsible for the people they elect. That said I don't think the current situation makes much sense. The odds are high…

>Technically the ECB threatens to stop providing emergency credit.

Technically, they were threatening to shut off access to target2.

>Are ordinary Greeks to blame? Yes

Ioannis Papandoniou is likely happy that you're unwilling to let him take too much of the blame. I guess he's suffered enough already right?

Goldman Sachs too (couldn't have happened without them).

>That said I don't think the current situation makes much sense.

It seems to be functioning as intended. Desperation in Greece is driving emigration to Northern Europe which is keeping a lid on wage inflation there and privatization of state assets in underway, which affords profitable opportunities for the right sort of person: http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/29/greek-privatization-program-o...

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#240

Post by return0 » Wed, Nov 02, 2016, 9:10 PM UTC

muse900 wrote: post #217

flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

I won't agree with you just because you are presenting "some" numbers. I know for a fact that my parents that live in Greece, and do not rent and own 3 flats and 1 house all of them divided equally to a different person within the family including me have to pay an "emergency" taxation on the electrical bill which is a lot of money. (A LOT OF MONEY!) Atm my parents are pensioniers and they don't rent neither have any…

> own 3 flats and 1 house

> Seriously Rich people in Greece pay no tax and they don't care as well.

Maybe you should realize your parents are the rich people.