Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In Greece, Property Is Debt

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 302 posts

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#191

Post by crdoconnor »

sasvari wrote: post #187
nugget wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody would buy the house If you put this hypothetical 90k euro house up for sale at a public auction tomorrow, what would it sell for? 50k? 70k? Real assets are usually sale-able, albeit perhaps for less than the owner thinks the asset is worth. > Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. Since Greece is still in the EU, you can move to any member country right? UK, Germa…

Personally I would vote for revolution - national default, totally new political leadership - and start to rebuild the country from scratch. Anything is better than decades of externally enforced austerity crippling a country's spirit as reflected in everything I read these days about Greece. Looking at the democratically elected politicians/governments in Greece in the last decades I don't know where a totally new p…

>It's not that the electorate didn't consistently vote for the political leaderships which are/were, at least partially, responsible for the situation Greece finds itself in right now.

That isn't really true. In both of the previous elections they voted for parties promising to end austerity.

In both cases it wasn't even as if the parties didn't want to end austerity but when they tried they were basically threatened with economic catastrophe (shutting payment systems in the entire country, indefinitely).

Last year they fired a kind of warning shot. Greek banks had to shut down for six days, cash machines only let you remove a small amount each day, capital controls were imposed. That could have been continued indefinitely.

Eventually Syriza wilted. Their mistake was assuming in the negotiations that the Troika's primary concern was getting their debts repaid. It wasn't. They just wanted greece to knuckle under and do as it was told.

The problem isn't than an elected government couldn't extricate the country from the Euro and return the country to growth, it's that kind of project would take 9 months minimum and during that entire time the country is vulnerable to the ECB flipping the switch on their economy and "turning off" Greek savings and "turning off" international trade and effecting instant 3rd world status (and not even 'good' third world status).

In effect, Greece has been converted into a puppet state that rubber stamps European Commission and ECB legislation. They issue diktats to Greece who rubber stamps them, and they're not even really pretending it's about getting paid back any more.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#192

Post by akytt »

kkapelon wrote: post #153
nugget wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the solution in either case be to sell the house and move somewhere you can find a job?

Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents hous…

You sell the house. You have invested your money well, your property has increased in value. Congratulations! Now pay a bit of taxes to support the people who have not been as fortunate and stop complaining. Your property taxes are actually lower than in other countries by a margin, how can they be a problem, then? Quite frankly I think the notion of actually having to pay taxes has not been there for decades and it just feels tough to get over it once other people stop financig your lifestyle.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#193

Post by saint_fiasco »

dualogy wrote: post #116
simosx wrote: post #35

Some examples of inheritance would be either old houses at the village or small olive groves. Many old houses at the village are derelict and the small olive groves have little financial value. The olive groves are generally small because they have been divided among the children through the generations. If an olive grove is not tended for 5-10 years, it becomes unusable and costly to fix.

> Many old houses at the village are derelict Ooh, damn, that might require some time investment and manual labour! What is this, the 20th century? Dump this rotten crap! > If an olive grove is not tended for 5-10 years, it becomes unusable and costly to fix. Ooh, damn, that might require some time investment and manual labour! What is this, the 20th century? Get outta town.. ;D

It also requires capital, which is hard to get in Greece. Who is going to lend them money for the repairs?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#194

Post by return0 »

nugget wrote: post #142
kkapelon wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numbers don't really say anything if you don't explain who decides them. Here are two scenarios for you 1)I live in Greece and get 400 Euros a month and barely break even. I live in a house (inherited by my parents) that would fetch probably 90.000 in the market. Government says that it really costs 300.000 euros. I get taxed for it even though I cannot really afford it. 2)I am unemployed and live with my parents. Th…

Wouldn't the solution in either case be to sell the house and move somewhere you can find a job?

Or simply rent out the house?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#195

Post by hammock »

kkapelon wrote: post #153
nugget wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the solution in either case be to sell the house and move somewhere you can find a job?

Nobody would buy the house (apart from foreigners) because it is now linked to the tax that everybody wants to avoid. Also cash flow is a big problem for everybody so it is hard to find somebody that has 90.000 in cash and also willing to buy it. Move to where? Another city? Another country? Unemployment is everywhere in Greece. I am not even mentioning the sentimental factor of being forced to sell your parents hous…

If no one is willing to buy it for 90,000, is it really worth 90,000? (Spoiler: no)

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#196

Post by repsilat »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #184
sliverstorm wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corrupt tax valuations are a problem, but it's practically one of the tenants of property tax that it is supposed to elbow you out if you can't afford the tax. It's not "nice" to say, but one of the purposes of property tax is to serve as a market force to encourage better usage of valuable land.

One possible fix is a law that states the government must purchase properties at the assessed price (or at something like 85% of the assessed price). Then if the tax office assesses your house at triple its actual value, well, they just handed you a giant pile of cash.

Another fix is to let you set the value yourself, and treat it as a standing offer to sell (at some premium, maybe.)

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#197

Post by draugadrotten »

StavrosK wrote: post #98
ferongr wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not complaining, I don't have any more property on my name and I think it's reasonable.

I'm saying that 250 euros might sound low until one considers that it's about 8% of the entire income the property would make when rented.

8% doesn't sound like a high tax level to me. Check out northern Europes 50% income tax levels with 25% VAT and come back later.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#198

Post by return0 »

kkapelon wrote: post #126
flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

Numbers don't really say anything if you don't explain who decides them. Here are two scenarios for you 1)I live in Greece and get 400 Euros a month and barely break even. I live in a house (inherited by my parents) that would fetch probably 90.000 in the market. Government says that it really costs 300.000 euros. I get taxed for it even though I cannot really afford it. 2)I am unemployed and live with my parents. Th…

Not everyone is lucky to inherit a house. Houses are overpriced and out-of-reach for middle class incomes in Greece. We also pay exorbitant income taxes. Is that fair?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#199

Post by pjmorris »

nradov wrote: post #167
pjmorris wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is astonishingly sad to me that the country from which Democracy was exported no longer has a say (or do they?)

Greece does have a say. They can choose to secede from the EU, drop out of the Euro, and default on their debts. And then they'll have to live with the consequences. But democracy doesn't mean they can vote to force other countries to forgive their debts.

History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. Germany was in the same position wrt to the League of Nations after WWI.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#200

Post by MrMullen »

nradov wrote: post #167
pjmorris wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is astonishingly sad to me that the country from which Democracy was exported no longer has a say (or do they?)

Greece does have a say. They can choose to secede from the EU, drop out of the Euro, and default on their debts. And then they'll have to live with the consequences. But democracy doesn't mean they can vote to force other countries to forgive their debts.

> But democracy doesn't mean they can vote to force other countries to forgive their debts.

Bingo! Greece can do whatever it wants. If they want to stay in the Euro, then they can stay in the Euro but have to follow certain guidelines. If they want to do what they want to do then they can leave the Euro, but they should not complain when their overspending ways catch up to them and it all falls apart.

Post reply on HN