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Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

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Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#141

Post by Sanddancer »

RandyRanderson wrote: post #102
vidarh wrote: post #25

On the contrary, it is the result of a concerted effort to reduce friction. With SIM cards, users can switch to a new phone by just moving the SIM, or switch to a new provider while keeping their phone (assuming its unlocked) by just replacing the SIM. Prior to SIM cards phones where frequently programmed to be tied to a specific provider. A pure software solution could work, but requires the network operators to be…

Unless you personally know some heads of some major carriers you can't say that and also it's unlikely carriers do things to reduce friction. Unlocked phones are still relatively rare in the US so I don't agree with your second point either. Network operators trust Gemalto, etc to write the SIM card software and also the provisioning and tower software. They also trust the phone manufacturer software as they rigorous…

In the rest of the world, though, unlocked phones are super common. Also, with sim cards, if my phone dies while I'm out on vacation, I can swap it into my backup phone with a minimum of effort. Software actually makes that harder because all the security benefits of a physical device go out the window. In order to be secure, I'd need to make a secure password, one which I'll probably forget five minutes later. At which point, I'd need to store it on some password aggregator. Thus, when I'd actually need the username and password, I'd not have access to the one device needed to access that information.

Usernames and passwords suck. A lot. We should be striving to get rid of them, not make more places need them.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#142

Post by foobarqux »

Soft-SIM makes it trivial to sign-up for new mobile plans. This doesn't matter much domestically (maybe it does for multisim or cart abandonment) but it does internationally because of high roaming fees, which are a revenue stream carriers don't want to give up.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#143

Post by jjawssd »

gcb0 wrote: post #124
userbinator wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SIM card is a smart card If you have a credit/debit card with a chip, look at the arrangement of the contacts and compare to a SIM card. It's essentially the same standard (ISO 7816) at the lower layers, but with different application-layer protocols on top. Also, as a matter of being the only device in posession of the subscriber but arguably owned by the telco, I'd definitely prefer it to be a removable piece w…

/me puts on tinfoil hat the sim card has one important difference. It lives in a device that provides it with 24/7 battery and radio access. That is really worrisome when you think about. A tiny computer running applications you have no idea/access. powered 24/7. Always with you. With access to battery, network, mic, etc. And the other side of the network that could monitor it's traffic for malicious actions is owned…

Phones can be directly accessed over a network via IMEI

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#144

Post by mrb »

There are many poor design decisions in the cellphone infrastructure, but the SIM card is probably one of its best pieces.

Broken phone? Pop the SIM card into another phone, and you can immediately make and receive calls & texts on the new phone using your phone number.

If you had no SIM card, how would you authenticate yourself to the cell network (that's what the SIM card does)? Going online and then providing a username/password? This would be horrible security-wise as we all know people are terrible at picking secure unique passwords. So hackers could try to guess your password, then they would use your account, receives your calls & texts, and they could steal your cell data, causing you to receive large cellphone bills, etc. A total nightmare.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#145

Post by beojan »

icebraining wrote: post #73
jacquesm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flip phones have some of the best protections available: the sensors aren't there. You can't leak your location if there is no GPS module in your phone, you can't have your camera hacked if there is no camera and so on. I'd prefer all this stuff came with physical switches so it can be enabled/disabled in a hack-proof manner.

You can't leak your location if there is no GPS module in your phone While not as precise, you can definitively leak your location by scanning for the surrounding cell towers, especially in a city, which usually have hundreds or thousands of them (Manhattan alone has eleven, for example). I used to run a Python script on my Nokia phone that logged the tower ID, and I could reliable tell when I got to work, home, etc.…

> especially in a city, which usually have hundreds or thousands of them (Manhattan alone has eleven, for example)

That's really quite a way from "hundreds or thousands".

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#146

Post by djhworld »

cflee wrote: post #109
RandyRanderson wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you personally know some heads of some major carriers you can't say that and also it's unlikely carriers do things to reduce friction. Unlocked phones are still relatively rare in the US so I don't agree with your second point either. Network operators trust Gemalto, etc to write the SIM card software and also the provisioning and tower software. They also trust the phone manufacturer software as they rigorous…

> > With SIM cards, users can switch to a new phone by just moving the SIM, or switch to a new provider while keeping their phone (assuming its unlocked) by just replacing the SIM. > Unlocked phones are still relatively rare in the US so I don't agree with your second point either. As you point out, where GSM networks are concerned, this observation is mostly specific to the US - swapping phones and swapping SIMs has…

> swapping phones and swapping SIMs has been a reality in the rest of the world for years.

It's still prevalent here in the UK, although the competition is fierce enough for you to be able to find a vendor that sells a phone unlocked.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#147

Post by monort »

Lunar_Lamp wrote: post #118
baybal2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>$30/GB Some European operators still have cheaper roaming data plans

As an example, I pay £20/month for 30GB, that can be used anywhere in the EU, USA, Canada, Australia (and a few other countries).

If it's "Feel at home" from Three, you can use it only for short trips and tethering is forbidden.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#148

Post by djhworld »

jacquesm wrote: post #17

SIM: Subscriber Identity Module almost says it all, on top of that a SIM can store your contacts (up to a certain number). The SIM is what separates your identity from the hardware of the phone (which has its own identity called 'IMEI'). A 'software solution' would need a carrier, that carrier IS the SIM. Another nice benefit of having the SIM device is that it makes it much harder to 'clone' a subscriber ID, somethi…

> on top of that a SIM can store your contacts (up to a certain number).

This presented a usability nightmare back in the days of feature phones, where if you didn't specifically say where to store contacts, it would often default to the phone's storage rather than SIM, or if you breached the number of contacts on a SIM you'd have overspill onto the phone memory (sometimes without realising)

This presented a lot of unnecessary confusion when it came to upgrading devices, or if you damaged your phone.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#149

Post by WatchDog »

djhworld wrote: post #148
jacquesm wrote: post #17

SIM: Subscriber Identity Module almost says it all, on top of that a SIM can store your contacts (up to a certain number). The SIM is what separates your identity from the hardware of the phone (which has its own identity called 'IMEI'). A 'software solution' would need a carrier, that carrier IS the SIM. Another nice benefit of having the SIM device is that it makes it much harder to 'clone' a subscriber ID, somethi…

> on top of that a SIM can store your contacts (up to a certain number). This presented a usability nightmare back in the days of feature phones, where if you didn't specifically say where to store contacts, it would often default to the phone's storage rather than SIM, or if you breached the number of contacts on a SIM you'd have overspill onto the phone memory (sometimes without realising) This presented a lot of u…

Well by the same token, sims offered a simple way to move contacts between devices, which was otherwise difficult to do without a pc and proprietary cables/software to export data from the phone.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#150

Post by nhf »

glennos wrote: post #64
lathiat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

another interesting company in this space is FlexiroamX, they have a super flat sim that sticks on top of your existing sim. It lets you soft-switch the SIM using a "SIM Application" (like mentioned elsewhere in the thread) - appears as if it unplugs and replugs to the phone. See picture of the process here: https://twitter.com/lathiat/status/758979125751054336 Works fantastically and gives me $30/GB data in pretty m…

Super interesting. So the overlay tricks the phone into thinking there's 2 SIMs in the phone?

It's more like a "proxy" for your SIM card where it can act as its own SIM, or as a passthrough, depending on software settings.
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