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Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

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Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#121

Post by lmm »

rblatz wrote: post #119
jacquesm wrote: post #17

SIM: Subscriber Identity Module almost says it all, on top of that a SIM can store your contacts (up to a certain number). The SIM is what separates your identity from the hardware of the phone (which has its own identity called 'IMEI'). A 'software solution' would need a carrier, that carrier IS the SIM. Another nice benefit of having the SIM device is that it makes it much harder to 'clone' a subscriber ID, somethi…

I don't recall ever needing a PIN to unlock a SIM card.

The ability is there. Many people don't bother setting it.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#122

Post by RandyRanderson »

cflee wrote: post #109
RandyRanderson wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you personally know some heads of some major carriers you can't say that and also it's unlikely carriers do things to reduce friction. Unlocked phones are still relatively rare in the US so I don't agree with your second point either. Network operators trust Gemalto, etc to write the SIM card software and also the provisioning and tower software. They also trust the phone manufacturer software as they rigorous…

> > With SIM cards, users can switch to a new phone by just moving the SIM, or switch to a new provider while keeping their phone (assuming its unlocked) by just replacing the SIM. > Unlocked phones are still relatively rare in the US so I don't agree with your second point either. As you point out, where GSM networks are concerned, this observation is mostly specific to the US - swapping phones and swapping SIMs has…

I'm all for reduction in friction and I believe software sims will reduce this. I mean I can conceive of a world where connecting to a 3g+ network is little harder than a WIFI network.

It wouldn't be good for the carriers but it'd be great for consumers.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#123

Post by icebraining »

jacquesm wrote: post #74
icebraining wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't leak your location if there is no GPS module in your phone While not as precise, you can definitively leak your location by scanning for the surrounding cell towers, especially in a city, which usually have hundreds or thousands of them (Manhattan alone has eleven, for example). I used to run a Python script on my Nokia phone that logged the tower ID, and I could reliable tell when I got to work, home, etc.…

Sure, but that's telcos and the local law enforcement. It's not google, facebook, 500 advertising networks and a whole pile of other parties. It's also not accurate to within enough resolution start targeting advertising and other nuisance information at me even if there was a way to present me that (which there isn't). I'm well aware of the power of triangulation, I used to go fox hunting. http://www.homingin.com/

In some places, "just telcos" doesn't mean much: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-lazarus-20140425-colum...

Though European laws are still mostly sane in that regard.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#124

Post by gcb0 »

userbinator wrote: post #90
JoachimSchipper wrote: post #6

The SIM card is a smart card, i.e. a secure piece of hardware, that protects the telephone network from the subscriber - most importantly, it ensures that the network has someone to bill. In most western countries, SIMs do little else; however, they are full application platforms, allowing stuff like Kenya's mobile payment network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa . For what it's worth, you really don't want to ha…

The SIM card is a smart card If you have a credit/debit card with a chip, look at the arrangement of the contacts and compare to a SIM card. It's essentially the same standard (ISO 7816) at the lower layers, but with different application-layer protocols on top. Also, as a matter of being the only device in posession of the subscriber but arguably owned by the telco, I'd definitely prefer it to be a removable piece w…

/me puts on tinfoil hat

the sim card has one important difference. It lives in a device that provides it with 24/7 battery and radio access.

That is really worrisome when you think about. A tiny computer running applications you have no idea/access. powered 24/7. Always with you. With access to battery, network, mic, etc. And the other side of the network that could monitor it's traffic for malicious actions is owned by the very people that could abuse it in the first place.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#125

Post by gcb0 »

URSpider94 wrote: post #120
nly wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice SIM cards don't give you much physical security anyway. I transferred my mobile phone number etc over to a new SIM card the other week and all I needed was name, address, DOB and proof of ID... of course my network didnt have any of these on file yet, so I had to first tell them these details, and then show ID to verify that I was who I had just told them that I should be. Yeah... this is the state of con…

But that's the choice of the network operator. The SIM itself is still completely unique and identifiable, they just chose to allow customers to re-map SIM's on the fly.

and this is the norm all over the world. And SIMs cannot exist without the network operator. So in the end, this is the worst vulnerability of SIM cards.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#126

Post by jwatte »

userbinator wrote: post #90
JoachimSchipper wrote: post #6

The SIM card is a smart card, i.e. a secure piece of hardware, that protects the telephone network from the subscriber - most importantly, it ensures that the network has someone to bill. In most western countries, SIMs do little else; however, they are full application platforms, allowing stuff like Kenya's mobile payment network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa . For what it's worth, you really don't want to ha…

The SIM card is a smart card If you have a credit/debit card with a chip, look at the arrangement of the contacts and compare to a SIM card. It's essentially the same standard (ISO 7816) at the lower layers, but with different application-layer protocols on top. Also, as a matter of being the only device in posession of the subscriber but arguably owned by the telco, I'd definitely prefer it to be a removable piece w…

That's what Sprint did, and why you couldn't use Sprint LTE equipment (that would otherwise be compatible) abroad. They basically hardwired the SIM to an existing design...

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#128

Post by tscs37 »

>Should there not be a software solution that lets you select which network/s the phone should connect to?

If I recall correctly german ISPs are trying to find a solution there by embedding the SIM into the device and then branding it on changing provider.

The problems SIM cards are (trying) solve is largely to "secure" the phone network. This mostly boils down who to send the large bill when shit goes fan. (The mobile network is pretty much non-secure, which is why SMS-2FA is not a good solution at all)

(They're also technically a backdoor for your ISP to do whatever they want)

Anyway, the reason SIM cards haven't died yet is probably because there is not much reason to replace them. They're tiny (so Apple doesn't kill it for half a millimeter of thickness) and pretty useful for the ISP to setup certificates and connection details.

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#129

Post by derefr »

gcb0 wrote: post #124
userbinator wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SIM card is a smart card If you have a credit/debit card with a chip, look at the arrangement of the contacts and compare to a SIM card. It's essentially the same standard (ISO 7816) at the lower layers, but with different application-layer protocols on top. Also, as a matter of being the only device in posession of the subscriber but arguably owned by the telco, I'd definitely prefer it to be a removable piece w…

/me puts on tinfoil hat the sim card has one important difference. It lives in a device that provides it with 24/7 battery and radio access. That is really worrisome when you think about. A tiny computer running applications you have no idea/access. powered 24/7. Always with you. With access to battery, network, mic, etc. And the other side of the network that could monitor it's traffic for malicious actions is owned…

> powered 24/7

Is it? When you turn on "airplane mode" on a phone, is there a reason for the SIM to still be receiving power at that point?

Re: Ask HN: Why are SIM cards still a thing?

#130

Post by Razengan »

TorKlingberg wrote: post #44

I work in the industry. I somewhat agree with you, SIM cards are a hassle, and I hope they will go away at least partially. As for why you still need them, I see some reasons: 1. The alternative may be worse. At least with SIM cards you can switch operator when you want (if the phone is not carrier locked, bleh), or use a local prepaid SIM when abroad. 2. Inertia. Removing the physical SIM would require getting opera…

It says Apple SIM works in over 100 countries:

http://www.apple.com/ipad/apple-sim/

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