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DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

ifixit.org

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Re: DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

#41

Post by nercht12 »

tiglionabbit wrote: post #28
cmurf wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the aftermath from inventing intellectual property. Patents were once called monopolies. What I find amusing is, you get this staunchly anti-government/libertarians who are also incredibly pro-IP. And yet IP is all based on governments granting monopoly power over ideas, with violations enabling the owner to engage in all kinds of punative behavior with the government as the strong arm. Ironic. I think there's s…

I thought patents were an incentive to invest in research and development. Without patents, anyone who invests in research is at a disadvantage because when they come up with something good, their competitors can copy them at no cost.

Once upon a time, they did serve a purpose for people such as Edison who got ripped off right and left, or so I'm told. These days, it's more about putting money in lawyers' pockets because that alleged "protection" technically isn't free: you have to pay someone to defend it. That's why the little guy still goes under. Not to mention his patent might overlap with someone else's just enough for them to try to sue him for stepping over his bounds, supposing he tries making an "improvement". Patents and copyrights are nothing more than a legal minefield. There's nothing intellectually aiding about them, at least not in this era.

Re: DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

#42

Post by [deleted] »

s_q_b wrote: post #31
userbinator wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A clear example of the Streisand effect in action. More recently, this happened with the decryption key that starts with 09 F9...

I'm trying to conceive of a t-shirt that would, merely by reading it, cause the reader to violate a copyright law. That one's difficult. Maybe one with a custom EULA, "By talking to me you acknowledge that you are agreeing to these terms. Should you not agree, say nothing further."

[deleted]

Re: DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

#43

Post by ryandrake »

fnj wrote: post #37
tiglionabbit wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought patents were an incentive to invest in research and development. Without patents, anyone who invests in research is at a disadvantage because when they come up with something good, their competitors can copy them at no cost.

No, both they and their competitors are equally advantaged once the invention has been made. What paents give them is not freedom from disadvantage; it is an artificial advantage to justify making the investment. Society/the government is ostensibly afraid nobody will invent if they are not artificially advantaged. Those with working intellect consider that trade secrets are enough of a protection against competition…

It's a good thing too, because as we all know, nobody ever invented anything before patents existed.

Re: DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

#44

Post by didibus »

fnj wrote: post #37
tiglionabbit wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought patents were an incentive to invest in research and development. Without patents, anyone who invests in research is at a disadvantage because when they come up with something good, their competitors can copy them at no cost.

No, both they and their competitors are equally advantaged once the invention has been made. What paents give them is not freedom from disadvantage; it is an artificial advantage to justify making the investment. Society/the government is ostensibly afraid nobody will invent if they are not artificially advantaged. Those with working intellect consider that trade secrets are enough of a protection against competition…

I remember reading that the idea behind patents was to improve the knowledge transfer that trade secrets didn't offer. In exchange for a temporary exclusivity right, you are required to make public your discoveries and advancements.

The article went further into how trade secrets allowed a company to have its employees sign non disclosures and actually sue the employee and whoever else used the employer's "stolen" knowledge in criminal court, while patents changed this to be only civil and prevented employees from being sued at all.

As everything in life, a balance between the two is probably the most optimal. So I agree patents might have started going too far one way, but I doubt trade secrets would be any better in addressing OP's complaint that patents prevent the free transfer of knowledge and limits innovation.

While I never lived when trade secrets were the norm, I believe most people supporting it in favor of patents suffer from the same problem a lot of younger programmers suffer from. We keep reinventing the wheel and making the same mistakes over and over. It's all a cycle, we'll go back to trade secrets and then their issues will become more "apparent", people will have forgotten the inherent issues with patents and we'll move back to patents again, repeating the cycle.

So I personally disagree with both, you rarely solve issues by reverting back to older ways which the people before us had already tried in vain. We have to try something else, maybe a hybrid, maybe something totally different.

Re: DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

#45

Post by nercht12 »

rms_returns wrote: post #39

The power of DMCA is only because of Google. The day we find an alternative to this great search engine of our times, DMCA will render itself toothless.

I fail to see how you think Google is responsible for the DMCA power. Google fought against acts like SOPA because it would have seriously hurt their business. The real people pushing DMCA power are Sony, RIAA, Warner Bros, and the entertainment industry who have the most to lose when it comes to this issue.

Re: DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

#46

Post by ncote »

Hyperborian wrote: post #40
0xcde4c3db wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granting that the Venn diagram of "libertarian" and "Objectivist" is a contentious matter, Ayn Rand was very outspoken in her support of copyrights and patents, and one of the plots of the villainous collectivists in Atlas Shrugged was to nationalize all patents.

That Venn diagram has little to no actual overlap at all. The objectivists just find it to be to their advantage, these days, to make it appear that they might. The controversy that you suggest is as manufactured as the controversy about anthropomorphic climate change.

Anthropogenic. And also, idiot.

Re: DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

#47

Post by AKifer »

kobayashi wrote: post #4

For those who don't take the time to read the (short) article, here's the most important part (IMO): >The downside: In 2018, advocates will have to ask for permission to repair their cars again—a daunting process that costs a massive amount of time, effort, and legal fees. >But we’re trying to change that. Yesterday, iFixit and Repair.org submitted comments to the Copyright Office in support of carving out a permanen…

I agree, that's the most important point in this article. It's typical lawyers tactic to let the case sleep for a few years for the momentum to fade, then retry to enforce it again. In such a situation, better kill the beast once and for all.

Re: DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

#48

Post by mrkgnao »

hueving wrote: post #27
foxfired wrote: post #21

One thing that I thought was funny about the hackers remotely hacking the Jeep, is that after the article was published and posted here, an HN user went on and reported them to them to High Way patrol. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9921987

And the HN user that reported them did the right thing IMO. Ethical research is a thing. The user reported them to hi-po not because they were 'hacking', but because they intentionally created a dangerous situation on a highway by stalling a car, which could have gotten multiple people killed. It's similar to the guy that decided to connect to the turbofan with his laptop on a populated passenger airplane in flight .

> It's similar to the guy that decided to connect to the turbofan with his laptop on a populated passenger airplane in flight.

Link?

Re: DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

#49

Post by kalleboo »

taneq wrote: post #13
jacquesm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non computerized automobiles are those before fuel injection became common, which dates back to the early 80's. One option would be anything with mechanical diesel injection pumps, but those will at some point be harder to get past emissions inspection. Keeping a car that old on the road is going to be tricky, the engines do wear out at some point and bodies will go faster depending on the climate. Anything from that…

There are different levels of 'computerised', though. An early 90s car with EFI and ABS does have some processors in it, but they're standard modules (so can just plug a new one in if one fails) running from EPROM and have very limited communication. Unless you're worried about it being EMP-proof, that's not really a problem. Modern cars where everything is controlled by a central internet-connected computer are a wh…

> Modern cars where everything is controlled by a central internet-connected computer are a whole different proposition.

Are cars really built this way? I thought they were still basically a network of devices, for safety reasons.

Re: DMCA exemption for repairs, modifications, research on your vehicle takes effect

#50

Post by Zancarius »

mrkgnao wrote: post #48
hueving wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the HN user that reported them did the right thing IMO. Ethical research is a thing. The user reported them to hi-po not because they were 'hacking', but because they intentionally created a dangerous situation on a highway by stalling a car, which could have gotten multiple people killed. It's similar to the guy that decided to connect to the turbofan with his laptop on a populated passenger airplane in flight .

> It's similar to the guy that decided to connect to the turbofan with his laptop on a populated passenger airplane in flight. Link?

I think the poster you're replying to is mis-remembering. I'm not sure. IIRC, there was an article alleging that a passenger managed to force a slight turn of an aircraft, but subsequent investigation turned up evidence suggesting it didn't actually happen. Or at least I don't think there was any evidence the engines were under the hacker's control for any length of time.

The only articles I could find were these:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5531679

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8139905

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9402336

But the first one makes some rather dubious claims and doesn't align with my memory of what I believe your OP is remembering. My Google-Fu isn't working out well for me tonight (in my defense, it's late, I'm tired, and I'm reading this for entertainment...).

Edit, also these:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/17/us/fbi-hacker-flight-computer-...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/05/16/chris-roberts-...

Among others. I couldn't find the HN discussion on this, though.

Edit edit: Found the HN links:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9557875

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9568050

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