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Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

nytimes.com

191–200 of 257 posts

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#191
post #165

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

> "One of the problems here is that everybody has a pre-formed opinion and does not seem to want to risk having to modify it with the evidence of experience." That's probably the most accurate description of HN comments I've seen. People see a headline related to something they already have pre-existing beliefs about, they read a few paragraphs just to make sure they're on point, and then they jump straight to the co…

Isn't that the problem with Internet discussions in general? It's so rare to find a person whose opinion has changed after reading a different perspective on the Internet.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a stupid anecdote to point out the fact that differences in cultural attitudes can explain and somewhat justify test scores. I'm not even American, and I never claimed that the anecdote is true.

> It's a stupid anecdote to point out the fact that differences in cultural attitudes can explain and somewhat justify test scores. It would if it were true. > I'm not even American That's immaterial. > and I never claimed that the anecdote is true. Well, you didn't claim that it wasn't true either, but the whole thing hinges on whether or not the anecdote is true so if you bring it up I'm going to assume that you at…

I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#193
post #184

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

To me, the article isn't really about math... math is just used to illustrate how poorly we teach in America, and then talks about the reasons why, primarily that we do a really poor job of teaching teachers. Some key quotes: - It wasn’t the first time that Americans had dreamed up a better way to teach math and then failed to implement it. …The trouble always starts when teachers are told to put innovative ideas int…

That's a really good point. Though I do think the article is specifically about math, it generalizes to the point you're making.

I thought the article did a particularly good job explaining how the "new math" is very dependent on high quality teaching rather than adhering to a new curriculum.

Unfortunately, I think this is where the US has fallen down where it comes to math (and, as you've pointed out, other subjects). We seem to think we need to find the magic approach that will work.

My kids are in school, and they are doing common core math. In many ways I do think it's much better than the old way (put the big number in the house, put the little number outside the house... except if you're dividing the little number by the big number...). There are a lot of good ways to add fractions, or do long division. It's not only math, but math is actually an unusually good subject to teach this kind of creative problem solving.

Here's what I see as the problem: we observe a teacher approaching a problem a different way. When students are asked to subtract 4 3/4 from 6 2/5, you could do the ol' algorithmic cross multiply trick. It's long, and boring, but it does work. Or, you could write the numbers down on a number line, notice that there are distances between the numbers that amount to integers, and small additional bits of remaining distances that amount to fractions. Add those up and you've got your solution.

That's just one of many possible approaches. My guess is that a talented teacher might do this, or something else.

Here's what I feel common core does: it notices one particular creative approach and concludes, "oh, the way to teach this is Step 1: create a number line, step 2: mark off the whole numbers, Step 3:..."

Essentially, they're looking to reduce the creative approach to another mechanical set of steps. This may be an overstatement and overuse of this phrase, but it's sort of a "cargo cult" of math instruction. The point never was the number line, it was that a teacher was talented enough to see a better approach for this problem, and that, after repeated examples and exercises, the students develop this ability as well.

I do think this article gets at this - that the point isn't the particular "creative" approach, it's the creative approach itself.

Unfortunately, this will never work without talented teachers. They need to be drawn from the top tier of math grads, they need to be very good at teaching and connecting with students, they need to be fluid and creative in their approach, and they need excellent training and experience.

Almost nothing about the US educational system, outside a few very selective and rare programs, would draw this sort of person into teaching (I hope it's obvious I'm not talking about research universities).

The irony is, once you have these teachers, I suspect don't really need to formalize this approach! "Common Core Math", if done well, is probably what talented, creative math teachers would naturally do on their own. You can't get it from a set of mechanical steps, and if you're doing what you should (drawing in top teachers), you don't need the mechanical steps anyway.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The teachers were taught math badly I'm a college math professor, and I've talked to people who've taught the required "math for elementary ed majors" class. From everything I've heard, it's bleakly depressing. The students (i.e., the future teachers) show little aptitude, curiosity, or work ethic. They just want to be shown algorithms that will always lead them to the correct answer. I haven't taught such a course…

This is likely different state-to-state, but I am aware that in the upper midwest primary education degrees are cross-subject area in focus. Your elementary teacher may not be a math major because they are expected to teach all subjects. There is also probably some bias against deep content knowledge because "it's elementary school after all". Secondary Education degrees are subject specific, so secondary education m…

In the US, rules are not so strict. In 2007-08, 71.6 percent of secondary math teachers had been math majors. An additional 16.2 percent were certified in math but did not do a math major. 12.2 percent of secondary math teachers had neither a major nor a certification in math [1]. The number of uncertified non-math-major math teachers is much higher in lower grades, as you point out.

[1] https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=58

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#195

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

Couldn't read article. Hit paywall or something, didn't bother checking what just clicked "close tab" after the tenths of second it took to recognize it was not article. A reflex I've developed.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#196
Can't read article, paywall or adblock or something.

Is it because our popular culture ridicules being good at math as nerdy?

Is it because almost every american can name at least one sports or pop singer who makes multiple millions but probably has never even heard of a mathematician let alone be able to name one.

The root cause is we don't value math as a society. Until we do, we won't spend the effort needed to figure out how to teach individuals better.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#197

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

[deleted]

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tuning the students in to Khan Academy and suchlike programs I think parents have an enormous role to play in the effectiveness of K-12 education. If they are not very much involved (e.g., enforcing, participating, encouraging) then school isn't valued or prioritized, nor will the average student see how fun many subjects can be to learn (assuming the teacher may not be effective at this). > were taught math badly…

But the parents also suffered through incompetent math instruction. Unless they are among the few who loved the subject anyway, they're not going to be able to help. > Just an aside, wouldn't this be expressed as "taught poorly"? I don't think there's anything wrong with "badly" here, and at least one dictionary [0] seems to support me; see esp. sense 2. But "poorly" works just as well. [0] http://www.dictionary.com/…

> But the parents also suffered through incompetent math instruction.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean parents are not able to be encouraging. Their support, I believe, is more valuable than their level of absolute education on the common subjects.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#199

Well, a lot of people came to America hoping they would need math less. Americans stink at it because they feel they don't need it and when they feel otherwise it will be too late. It's easy enough to encourage seduction too math as the article suggests, but the real challenge is somehow blocking out more and more distractions (other options) when you can't reduce them because freedom and democracy are national ideal…

To put it more succinctly, when you have this American phenomena often labeled "ADHD", whatever you think is really happening there, education must be viewed in light of the whole attention economy of the child's life.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#200
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average parent would almost never have time to teach a subject they know, how would they find time to teach something they don't know.

Just showing interest and asking what the child is doing is often enough. If the parent can get the child to explain it, that also helps. AKA rubber duck debugging.

> Just showing interest and asking what the child is doing is often enough.

Yes, this is what I meant to convey.

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