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Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#41

Post by ctrlalt_g »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots. One could argue that for whatever reason, many of the professors, researchers and postdocs at those schools learned math in other countries, but, if these lists are to be believed, the US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world. So two questi…

I once heard an anecdote that might describe some of what's happening. In the trenches of WWI, when it was time to fight, soldiers would have to climb up a ladder onto a battlefield. The problem was that German snipers could see the tops of the ladders. The Germans would keep their rifles fixed on where they knew the enemy would emerge and simply shoot them down once they saw helmets appear.

The European Allied soldiers were so disciplined that they just kept climbing up the ladders and getting killed one by one, following their orders to their deaths. The Americans saw this and said, "fuck that, I'm not climbing up there."

I think most Americans are pragmatic and they won't do something unless it makes sense. And to be honest, most people don't need to study math. Or at least it's not obvious that they do. I think most of the math professors I've talked to would agree. They view math, as it's taught in core curricula, more as an art than as having vocational value.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#42

Post by johncolanduoni »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots. One could argue that for whatever reason, many of the professors, researchers and postdocs at those schools learned math in other countries, but, if these lists are to be believed, the US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world. So two questi…

Most math (and physics) programs, especially at higher tier universities, have not only a disproportionate number of foreign professors and researchers but also students. So it's largely people who had superior primary and secondary school math education teaching others who had superior primary and secondary school education.

You can see this especially strongly in graduate programs, where US citizens can often get a sort of "affirmative action" because they are the only ones eligible for NSF student fellowships (incentivizing universities to admit them). There's just very little domestic interest in math and physics, despite both feeding into rather favorable job markets (as long as you aren't dead set on being in academia long-term).

As for your second question, it's an extension of US universities' preeminent standing in most fields (on average, there are of course exceptions). I don't think there are really any math specific effects going on there.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#43

Post by WalterBright »

brightball wrote: post #21
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots. One could argue that for whatever reason, many of the professors, researchers and postdocs at those schools learned math in other countries, but, if these lists are to be believed, the US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world. So two questi…

My guess is that as with most things people need to feel that what they are learning is relevant. Start teaching finance in high school and math will become a lot more useful, quick.

I would hope that conventional K-12 at some point would include instruction on what a balance sheet is, a P+L statement, and a bit on what the jargon is. Should also include the basics of sales, how a business operates, finance (as you said), etc.

But that hope is in vain :-(

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#44

Post by eatbitseveryday »

ScottBurson wrote: post #24
mathattack wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do a great job with the extreme students. The top 5% of private and public schools in the country produce more than enough folks capable in mathematics. It's the rest of the country that struggles. There are a lot of reasons why the US does well in Universities and poorer up until then relative to the rest of the world: 1 - In much of the world, the school you get into matters more than what you did there. (The lo…

> It's a mixed bad in K-12 Your typo is very accurate :-) I would say that our problem in K-12 is a self-perpetuating one. The teachers were taught math badly and so never really learned it (and learned to hate it into the bargain). So then they teach it badly. I'm not sure there's any solution except for tuning the students in to Khan Academy and suchlike programs.

> tuning the students in to Khan Academy and suchlike programs

I think parents have an enormous role to play in the effectiveness of K-12 education. If they are not very much involved (e.g., enforcing, participating, encouraging) then school isn't valued or prioritized, nor will the average student see how fun many subjects can be to learn (assuming the teacher may not be effective at this).

> were taught math badly

> teach it badly

Just an aside, wouldn't this be expressed as "taught poorly"?

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#45

Post by hawkice »

asgard1024 wrote: post #40
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots. One could argue that for whatever reason, many of the professors, researchers and postdocs at those schools learned math in other countries, but, if these lists are to be believed, the US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world. So two questi…

"It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots." It's a fallacy. US is a large country, so those talented students concentrate in fewer universities. In Europe for instance, due to language and culture barriers, talented students from Czech Republic do not very often go to Cambridge. You need to look at m…

China is a larger country with extremely promising mathematics scores. So why is it not 8/10 China and 2/10 US (in proportion to population) or even more extreme? A large country having access to a large talent poll doesn't get very close to explaining what's going on.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#46

Post by mathattack »

ScottBurson wrote: post #24
mathattack wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do a great job with the extreme students. The top 5% of private and public schools in the country produce more than enough folks capable in mathematics. It's the rest of the country that struggles. There are a lot of reasons why the US does well in Universities and poorer up until then relative to the rest of the world: 1 - In much of the world, the school you get into matters more than what you did there. (The lo…

> It's a mixed bad in K-12 Your typo is very accurate :-) I would say that our problem in K-12 is a self-perpetuating one. The teachers were taught math badly and so never really learned it (and learned to hate it into the bargain). So then they teach it badly. I'm not sure there's any solution except for tuning the students in to Khan Academy and suchlike programs.

I've seen K-5 teachers in Silicon Valley public schools who would struggle with square roots. How can they inspire an interest in math?

Ultimately it's on the parents.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#47

Post by nemo44x »

Math is hard work. I was bad at math. I went to college a couple years after I graduated high school where I made little effort to challenge myself. But after figuring things out, at 20 I decided I wanted to do computer science as I enjoyed some of the programming skills I picked up (C++ of all things!).

I was very unprepared for the math part of it and it was hard. I tested into a remedial math level and when I looked at the CS requirement I knew that wouldn't be a good way to start. So I bought a used math book and spent a few weeks studying hard so I could get into a decent math placement so I could be where I needed for CS. This was just the start.

I had a long road with a lot of frustration but I made it. I made it because I never worked so hard at something up to that point in my life. There were times I thought it was hopeless but I just continued to do rote math problems, over and over again. And slowly the concepts started to sink in more and more. But there was always the frustration of missing the little details and forgetting a concept or not having enough experience honing a certain skill. But if I kept at it, over and over again, I would learn it and it suddenly became easy.

I was "bad at math". It would have been so easy to quit and try something else. But I knew I wanted to not only pass my tests but really understand the calculus and differentials, etc I had to do. And it was the best thing I ever did for myself.

Not only does working so hard at something prove you can work hard and achieve something but it shapes the way you see the world.

Math is hard. Some of us just have to work harder. People should realize that failing is normal and if you keep at it you will eventually get it. For some people it takes longer than others. I could never create math. But with enough time I believe I could eventually truly learn anything because of this experience.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#48

Post by anexprogrammer »

Frogolocalypse wrote: post #27
tomc1985 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK uses their own screwy imperial units for some measures

Not really. You still go to the shops and buy things in litres and kilograms, and their entire construction industry is in metric. The only commercial product that isn't in metric, funnily enough, is beer and cider. I guess getting pissed people to change proved harder than everything else.

...and milk is always pints. An awful lot of products come in imperial sizes but metric labelling - 454g jars of jam etc.

Timber sometimes gets called 2x4 even though it's 50x100, but that seems less common now.

Oddly just about everyone still uses feet and inches for their height. I hear kilos more and more often for weight, I don't think I've ever heard cm for height in the UK.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#49

Post by cocktailpeanuts »

rdtsc wrote: post #26

> Without the right training, most teachers do not understand math well enough to teach it the way Lampert does. My high school math teacher majored in math and then got a certificate in teaching. She wasn't a teacher who was told to teach math among other classes. She knew all the advanced stuff (beyond what a high school curriculum required), she was excited about it, she could explain things in various ways, give…

I don't know of any country where teachers are considered as elites. The reason your mother took that as compliment is not because teacher is a high social class occupation, but because being good at english is considered a great skill in many countries. If you really had to compare, in most cases people would feel more flattered to be mistaken as a doctor (or an engineer who works at Google than as an elementary school teacher.

I know people will throw stones at me for this, but the reason teachers are not the top 1% of the society is because functionally their job is a commodity. (We're talking about elementary/middle/high school teachers, not professors here).

It is not hard to find someone who knows high school math, for example. I'm not discounting the fact that there are sometimes really outstanding teachers, but the thing is, it's hard to objectively measure their performance since their teaching talent is not directly related to how well their students do. On the other hand, the "teachers" at universities are well respected since their talent is not only limited to how well they teach but the quality of their own research--the value is much easier to quantify.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#50

Post by jomamaxx »

rdtsc wrote: post #26

> Without the right training, most teachers do not understand math well enough to teach it the way Lampert does. My high school math teacher majored in math and then got a certificate in teaching. She wasn't a teacher who was told to teach math among other classes. She knew all the advanced stuff (beyond what a high school curriculum required), she was excited about it, she could explain things in various ways, give…

This is true, for some odd reason, teaching in America is not socially respected institution as much as it is elsewhere.

Teaching in Canada is along the lines of nursing or something: it's professional, requires a degree of competence and certification, there is social value. It's not exactly 'doctor' but it's respected for what it is, as it is in most nations.

I think it's because people assume American teachers are not paid much, but the one's I know are paid reasonably.

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