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Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

nature.com

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Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#131

Post by fsloth »

whateveracct wrote: post #83
fsloth wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is wishing for a world where it would be better to help eradicate suffering rather than work to accumulate imaginary play chips bad?

Wishing for unrealistic fantasy to become reality is just that, unrealistic. Anecdote: Many of my high school friends and peers went on to pursue medicine. I pursued engineering. Multiple times I was asked by these people, "You're smart so why aren't you spending your life making a difference?" Your comment and its ilk remind me of that question.

I asked why is whishing for a world with different economic incentives bad. Economic incentives are malleable. That's what economic planning does.

Your friends were delusional. In the world, there is a pool of change agents driven by intrinsic drive, and some of them can make an actual difference, but I don't think there is any way to choose becoming the specific agent who matters - rather, one can only join the pool and do ones best.

As you describe it, your friends thought they asked why you don't want to be the change agent who matters (which is a non-sequitur). They could have asked why you don't want to jump into the pool and dedicate several years of your life to a possible dead end career (which they probably didn't ask).

I asked why it's bad to whish for different economic environment for those in the pool.

I may have misinterpreted the discussion before my comment, though.

The crapton of data is produced and relied on because of broken philosophy of system. That could be changed as well (I don't know how).

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#132

Post by Balgair »

I'll put my 2 cents in here too.

PhD in bioeng. Not planning on academia. Unfortunately, most of my cohort of grad students are ... blind?... to the data that we all know is out there. I'm part of 2 groups on campus that specialize in industry networking and start-ups. We do monthly happy-hours where we pay for the beer and nachos and we also bring in speakers that have PhDs in industry to talk about the transition and network with them too. We get a lot of people (30+) to show up to these events.

But they are ALL 2nd or 3rd round post-docs. Almost no actual grad-students. I've talk to them. They all know that they have no real shot, they all know the odds in the lottery. They do not care. The only thing I can think is that these 22-27 year olds really think they can out-work each other and 'make it'. Past data in their lives says that they have always done so, and the next time should be no different. It's amazing that such smart people can be so damn bullheaded. Scientists are people too, including the stupidity.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#133

Post by mynameishere »

kneel wrote: post #61
reverend_gonzo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you ever feel that maybe you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand? Working a prop trading firm is nowhere near "making rich people richer via gambling in the financial markets". Furthermore, the majority of software/engineering jobs out there are not doing "something more beneficial to society". How many companies are really just ad-driven, marketing-driven. Yes, it would be nice if the entire world co…

>the majority of software/engineering jobs out there are not doing "something more beneficial to society" ... other things need to get done. And the majority of people have bills to pay. This is a big problem in itself.

It's less of a problem when you consider that it's not true. Most software gets written to solve a real problem. No, not at Snapchat or whatever, but at most places.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#134

Post by maverick_iceman »

eanzenberg wrote: post #52
jawilson2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you aren't downvoted for this, as this is basically my exact thought process for the last few years. > make rich people richer It is prop trading, so we are making ourselves richer, technically. We do a lot of charity work and donations with schools, etc. > Doesn't it feel like a waste of your talents Absolutely. However, I also like not having to beg my toddler to eat the food in front of him because payday i…

Why are you having children in grad school or as a postdoc? And three at that..

Is grad school supposed to be a monastic convent?

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#136

Post by maverick_iceman »

exox wrote: post #23

The problem I faced - and still am, to an extent - was that during my PhD I was given no support or really any information at all about the possibility of a life and career outside of academia. I was fortunate enough to be offered a postdoc position in the same group that I did my PhD (particle physics) before I’d actually submitted my thesis. However 6 months later I desperately needed a change and managed to find a…

Given your background, you can easily get a job as a software dev or data scientist in a big name Silicon Valley company. Just prepare for the interview for 2-3 months with books like Crack the Coding Interview.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#137

Post by dredmorbius »

jawilson2 wrote: post #91
dredmorbius wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus Torvalds. Richard Stallman. Martin Luther King, Jr. Nikola Tesla. Dr. John Snow.

I assume this should this be read in ascending order of importance ;-).

The contributions, conditions of those contributions, and the rewards and incentives for pursuing those contributions matter vastly more than the order of sequencing.

The list is extremely partial. I'd be much happier seeing other contributions to it than sniping about significance.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#138

Post by Obi_Juan_Kenobi »

tikhonj wrote: post #115
JDiculous wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't it feel like a waste of your talents to have society employing you full-time to make rich people richer via gambling in the financial markets rather than something more beneficial to society? I don't blame you at all (I'm sure your quality of life is magnitudes of order better, and I'd do the same in your position) and this isn't personal at all, it just pains me that our brightest graduates are working in fi…

This question comes up in most discussions about finance and trading. I think it's the wrong question to ask. Academic research jobs, despite poor pay and conditions, are still some of the hardest positions to get . The demand for those jobs far, far outstrips supply. It's hard to get into a decent PhD program and then basically impossible to get a decent faculty position (or join MSR or whatever). Candidates aren't…

> It's hard to get into a decent PhD program

Is it though? I got into the (top 2 or 3) program for my field with a middling GPA and a decent GRE. Compared to e.g. law and medicine, I think it was substantially easier for a given level of 'prestige'.

> just look at how faculty members are selected

In my experience, nepotism, later-career candidates, and some shiny publications. All the talk about hiring some younger candidates, even gasp someone with just a few years of postdoc, was just that: empty talk. I've seen tenured faculty threaten to leave if their girlfriend wasn't hired (seriously, fortunately he failed), candidates get fast-tracked because they were friends with the son of one of the faculty, etc.

Out of the 30 or so people I got to know decently well during my PhD, only two of them are off to strong starts. Interestingly, both of them have parents that are well-regarded senior faculty in fields identical and quite similar (respectively). Don't get me wrong, they are both very capable and, in their cases, have earned the positions, but despite being far from naive, the degree of nepotism in science has impressed me.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#139

Post by Obi_Juan_Kenobi »

Bartweiss wrote: post #106
timr wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former scientist, current startup person: please stop. This is crass. Startups that sell services to scientists aren't helping with the fundamental problem (i.e. there aren't many jobs, and there isn't enough funding once you have a job). Crowdfunding is nice in theory, but just makes the problem of vanity science worse than it is right now. Crowds don't know shit about science. If you want to help researchers,…

Frankly, crowdfunded science scares the hell out of me. Pretty much every time I've seen it, it consists of some fringe researcher promising one weird trick to cure A, B, and C. They don't get funding through traditional channels, because actual experts recognize the subtle-but-inescapable reasons they won't succeed, so instead they go to crowdfunding to squander a bunch of public money. I'm sure this could work, gen…

Yes!

The problem with funding science is simply the size of the pot; the way it's dolled out is actually quite reasonable given all the problems it could have.

Sure, you'll have cases of grants not getting funded because it runs contrary to the prevailing wisdom, and that is bad, but the magnitude of this problem is often overblown. You can swim against the current if you're careful about it and make a compelling case, absolutely.

Compare this to the issues of having anyone other than scientific peers judging the merits of work, and you'll see the easy advantage.

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