Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories • Hacker News Board

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#81

Post by hash-set » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

Having gone through a lot of what is discussed in the article, I have concluded that academic research careers are for rich people only. I didn't even have student loans, but the pay was ridiculous given how many years of my 20s I spent in school, i.e. not making any income. Retirement is a real thing you know? So is getting old and having poor health.

The comments on the nature.com page are interesting, too. No matter how much you love your career and your research, there is more to life.

Also, you can see how climate research has become a total echo chamber--the people fighting over the scraps of funding will gladly sell their souls to a communist lie if that's what it takes to get by.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#82

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

kayhi wrote: post #8

In the HN spirit, where's the opportunity? How can we help improve the life of researchers? Start ups trying to help: Science Exchange (YCS11) https://www.scienceexchange.com/ : outsource parts of your research to companies Instrumentl (YCS16) https://www.instrumentl.com/ : identify and push relevant grants towards applicable research Experiment (YCW13) https://experiment.com/ : crowdfunding platform for scientific r…

I don't think this is a problem startups are positioned to address.

Start-ups are geared to return outsided returns (1,000x+) on investment within a short time. Most are wealth-extractive, though a few may present real synergies.

The principle benefits of information technology to research have been in the tools and information access side. Computers are vastly less expensive, programming and data access/analysis tools vastly more powerful. And access to knowledge, mostly in violation of copyright conditions, through Sci-Hub, LibGen, and the like, is unprecedented in all world history.

Compensation is far more difficult.

One element is that the environment of a startup and the environment of research are almost diametrically opposed. Very high-pressur,e high-stress, rapid turnaround, subject to the whims of investors and markets, is pretty much the exact opposite of what a researcher needs. There are reasons that universities buffer faculty from these pressures (or at least do in theory).

The funding and financing of innovation through the ages is an interesting study. Few innovators have directly benefitted by their inventions through the market, many, especially of the most significant inventions (take television, 4-cycle engines, and gas turbines for example) have failed entirely at business.

Alternative models of support, including sinecure (essentially: tenure), and specific prize awards, might be other options. I'm exploring this area, the history is interesting.

Markets have a strong tendency to reward gambling-type activities, especially around monopoly formation.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#83

Post by whateveracct » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 5:47 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #58

whenwillitstop wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this thought process is pure brainwashing by the left

Why is wishing for a world where it would be better to help eradicate suffering rather than work to accumulate imaginary play chips bad?

Wishing for unrealistic fantasy to become reality is just that, unrealistic.

Anecdote: Many of my high school friends and peers went on to pursue medicine. I pursued engineering. Multiple times I was asked by these people, "You're smart so why aren't you spending your life making a difference?" Your comment and its ilk remind me of that question.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#84

Post by hash-set » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 5:48 PM UTC

hasbroslasher wrote: post #40

I'm curious why this field hasn't been "privatized" to some degree. Why doesn't division of labor apply? Why not have scientists go off and do their research and rely on a team that is skilled at hoarding grants or publishing works from raw data? I imagine it's probably due to some institutional barriers (e.g. you can't get funding outside of a university context). I imagine the reason is as always - our leaders are…

It's because the whole rotten mess that is academia is dying, that's why.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#85

Post by hprotagonist » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 5:49 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #59

hprotagonist wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like i said. In the physical sciences, you can't do it. Math is not a physical science -- and you can get stunning breakthroughs without anything except a quiet room, a pad of paper, a pencil, and a trash can. (old joke: /s/math/philosophy and remove the trash can!) This is not true if you're a microbiologist.

You can do original microbiologist research on the cheap. For an extreme case, Einstein did useful theoretical physics without a lab. Money vastly expands the scope of work you can do, but breaking new ground is often less expensive than making minor refinements to well understood areas. PS: The real risk is will likely will go 20+ years without finding anything, but if you have tenure that should not be a problem.

You've never tried to buy a good microscope, have you?

Kitting out a lab to do publishable work in a lot of fields right now is just jaw-droppingly expensive.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#86

Post by avs733 » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #17

hprotagonist wrote: post #9

"if you pay a man a salary for doing research, he and you will want to have something to point to at the end of the year to show that the money has not been wasted. In promising work of the highest class, however, results do not come in this regular fashion, in fact years may pass without any tangible result being obtained, and the position of the paid worker would be very embarrassing and he would naturally take to…

I think that was what tenure was supposed to be for.

It absolutely is (at least in the sciences)...the problem is that the path to tenure does not value this type of work. Naturally people could switch their focus once they do have tenure. That assumes that people are not creatures of habit though. The type of people who are likely to succeed on the path to tenure in its current form are those that are focused on production. Asking them (i.e., giving them the freedom) to suddenly change their focus to big, world changing, problems once they are 'free to do so' is unrealistic. Being taught through grad school, post docs, and your time as an assistant professor that this thing is how we measure value becomes your worldview.

Just ask Peter Higgs[0]

[0]http://www.sciencealert.com/peter-higgs-says-he-wouldn-t-hav...

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#87

Post by RodericDay » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #51

reverend_gonzo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you ever feel that maybe you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand? Working a prop trading firm is nowhere near "making rich people richer via gambling in the financial markets". Furthermore, the majority of software/engineering jobs out there are not doing "something more beneficial to society". How many companies are really just ad-driven, marketing-driven. Yes, it would be nice if the entire world co…

Yes!!! You will undoubtedly make a greater impact by earning as much as you can and donating it to causes later in life. Some people think research or science is the only path to a better society but in all honesty it may just take paying people in a poor country to plant trees.

Your left hand is inarguably taking, or helping take, more than your right hand is giving.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#88

Post by hash-set » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

platform wrote: post #25

exox wrote: post #23

The problem I faced - and still am, to an extent - was that during my PhD I was given no support or really any information at all about the possibility of a life and career outside of academia. I was fortunate enough to be offered a postdoc position in the same group that I did my PhD (particle physics) before I’d actually submitted my thesis. However 6 months later I desperately needed a change and managed to find a…

>I don’t feel qualified to compete with computer science/statistics grads for most of the software development or data science jobs that I see advertised. I suspect you are more qualified than most oracle-developer-turned-data-scientists Give it ago. review some of open source projects that can leverage your math or data understanding skills. Contribute to those. Use that as your experience/resume

I hate to burst your bubble, but outside of the major metros, there are few data science type jobs that are any good. It's an up-and-coming field, maybe--but as someone with a PhD and a lot of software development experience, making the transition has been tricky (am still working on it). It may be a good track or it may fizzle out, we'll see.

A few superstars will do well, the rest will be an urban myth of potential prosperity and happiness.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#89

Post by hash-set » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #4

yeah, i left science for the reasons the article outlined. it's a big weight off of my shoulders. i tell people who are thinking of going into science not to do so, now.

Me too. I loved it. I could not think of a better way I could have spent my 20s. But I was going broke and had to get out.

Re: Young, talented and fed-up: scientists tell their stories

#90

Post by scott_s » Thu, Oct 27, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #20

chriskanan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. A PhD in the sciences or engineering is a degree in how to do research and it prepares people for careers in research or for careers that require communicating research. If a person is only satisfied with being a professor at a R1 university, then don't do a PhD, but there are a ton of other jobs that require or greatly benefit from having one, e.g, teaching universities, NASA, government labs, m…

>A PhD is stressful and takes 5-6 years, but it can be a great experience with the correct expectations and a solid plan. The main problem is that most PhD students don't seem to think about those things nearly enough and have unreasonable expectations. Honestly, I think the main problem is mostly that PhD students are, on the one hand, full-grown adults supporting themselves, and yet are, on the other hand, paid McD…

I've known people (with PhDs) who worked for Goldman Sachs. They considered the work-life balance to be much better than academia (and some industry). Co-signed on the rest, though.