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Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

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Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#41

Post by chickenfries »

saiya-jin wrote: post #12
pjc50 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

feminism in the true meaning is very important, and it's mission might be +-over in the west, but a lot of work to be done elsewhere. i have an issue though with so called feminist women that don't care about gender equality, but they want just all the benefits for them, without other parts that naturally come with them (ie be always treated like a princess but as equal at the same time - come on, we're not schizophr…

> feminism in the true meaning is very important, and it's mission might be +-over in the west

Your claim is the exact opposite of the post you're responding to, but you don't back it up at all when the comment you're replying to provides concrete examples of the need for feminism in the west.

I want to take your comment in good faith, but when you do that and then launch into the typical "haven't the feminists gone too far?" with the typical allusions to emasculation, it discredits any other point you may be trying to make.

I'm downvoting you, but not because I disagree with everything you've said, but because your post is low quality and ads nothing to the discussion but a strawman.

> too loud where it doesn't matter anymore, and too quiet where it should.

It's almost as if women walk a delicate line between being being completely not taken seriously and being perceived as "loud" or bitchy. Also, it's insulting to both feminists all over the world because you clearly don't pay enough attention? Have you heard of the global sensation that is Malala Yousafzai? No because that would contradict your worldview of feminism having gone too far in the west and not far enough in the east. Isn't it convenient how all the feminists are wrong and you're right in your worldview?

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#42

Post by legodt »

Kenji wrote: post #38
legodt wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rape culture is not measured quantitatively by rapes reported/estimated. Please either go back to your men's rights hideyhole or actively get off the internet and start speaking to women active in the space of feminism to educate yourself on the subject. I will not be responding to you further

Evidence or gtfo. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I presented my evidence in the form of official FBI statistics.

Rape culture isn't about rapes. It's about a pervasive culture of misogyny that constantly demeans, shames, and objectifies women. Please go out and become educated on the subject rather than getting all of your information on this complex, multifaceted subject matter.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#43

Post by Kenji »

dogma1138 wrote: post #35
Kenji wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only 2 western countries that still have conscription which are Norway (non compulsory conscription) and Israel treat men and women equally in this regard. Get your facts straight. Norway has compulsory conscription. So does Switzerland. So does Turkey (well, after what's happened there in the last few years, you truly cannot consider it 'western' anymore, but it's a country that wants into the EU). Germany only…

Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions. Out of the 60-70K eligible men and women less than 10,000 are conscripted each year out of their choice. And yes you are right I forgot about the Swiss, but it seems that they are also going to be or have started conscripting women as of 2016. It's also importan…

Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions.

That is weird because a few years ago I had a friend from Norway and he was forced to serve. There were ways out - like the mental health route, but that left you with rather unpleasant entries in databases you'd rather not be in.

I forgot about the Swiss, but it seems that they are also going to be or have started conscripting women as of 2016.

No such thing is happening in Switzerland. At all. There might be some discussion about it, but if so, it's not serious.

I don't really care about the "civil service" option. It is still forced labour and violates human rights. Hire people or let them be, that also applies to the state. I have plans with my life, I can't just give a year here and a year there for some random governmental institution that forces me to mostly stand outside and wait or humiliate myself in front of sadistic military superiors.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#44

Post by legodt »

exstudent2 wrote: post #34
legodt wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahahahahahaha. No. Women in the West do not have it better than men by a long shot. We have a presidential candidate threatenjng to sue to silence all accusers of sexual assault towards him. We have trans women of color being killed daily in the streets with no repercussions. And we have white dudes on the internet claiming conscription is just as bad as living under a society dominated by rape culture. Get out of y…

Not that it makes it ok but far more men than women are killed in the streets without repercussions. Men are also way more represented in prison which I think has an undeniable rape culture. That's not even touching on male underrepresentation in higher education... Men and women both face unique challenges in the west. In many very real ways men are getting the short end of the stick. The problem a lot of people hav…

Parent post here. And, you know what? You're very right about a lot of things. You might be really interested in hearing Bell Hooks speak (she has a lot of awesome talks up on YouTube). She talks a great deal about how feminism is for everyone and the patriarchal structures we live under harm both men and women greatly. Men being killed in the street are not being killed for being men, unlike women who are killed for being trans or refusing sex. Do you see the difference here?

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#45

Post by Kenji »

legodt wrote: post #42
Kenji wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence or gtfo. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I presented my evidence in the form of official FBI statistics.

Rape culture isn't about rapes. It's about a pervasive culture of misogyny that constantly demeans, shames, and objectifies women. Please go out and become educated on the subject rather than getting all of your information on this complex, multifaceted subject matter.

I'd love to be educated about this topic. I am always eager to learn new things and broaden my horizons. I don't shy away from complex, multifaceted subject matters. It's just that, to learn, I need facts. I need something tangible and you fail to give me that.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#46

Post by littletimmy »

w_t_payne wrote: post #6

In this age of information, an excess of social conservatism is a systemic weakness for a culture; perhaps an existential weakness.

There is much evidence to suggest that exactly the opposite is true: an excess of social liberalism leads to the downfall of a culture. Social conservatism means stable families, strong men, and social cohesion, which translates into a stronger nation. Social liberalism, as it has now, degenerates into identity politics and political paralysis. As Aristotle put it, "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society."

The greatest time for the middle class in the United States, for example, was in the 50s, when society was much more conservative than it is now. (That's what the "Make America Great Again" is all about.) The 50s are the last decade that the conservative WASP aristocracy was in power. Every election since, groups like African Americans, women, and Jews have increased their power and brought about with them big government. How is that an improvement? Surely, you agree that big government is disastrous for the country?

There's a book "Sex and Culture" by J.D. Unwin that actually argues (convincingly in my opinion) that a suppression of sexual energies (i.e. control of women) is a necessary (not sufficient) condition for a civilization to succeed. Check it out.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#47

Post by dogma1138 »

Kenji wrote: post #43
dogma1138 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions. Out of the 60-70K eligible men and women less than 10,000 are conscripted each year out of their choice. And yes you are right I forgot about the Swiss, but it seems that they are also going to be or have started conscripting women as of 2016. It's also importan…

Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions. That is weird because a few years ago I had a friend from Norway and he was forced to serve. There were ways out - like the mental health route, but that left you with rather unpleasant entries in databases you'd rather not be in. I forgot about the Swiss, but i…

>That is weird because a few years ago I had a friend from Norway and he was forced to serve. There were ways out - like the mental health route, but that left you with rather unpleasant entries in databases you'd rather not be in.

I have family and friends in Norway there are tons of easy way outs, they don't even call the majority of people if you don't show up or refuse early they don't bother asking you twice.

I don't know what happened to your friend but it could be that he agreed, signed up and then regretted it.

"Norway employs a weak form of mandatory military service for men and women. While 63,841 men and women were called in for the examination of persons liable for military service in 2012 (mandatory for men), 9265 were conscripted.[6] In 2015 conscription was extended to women making Norway the first NATO member and first European country to make national service compulsory for both men and women.[7] There is a right of conscientious objection."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Armed_Forces#cite_no...

>I don't really care about the "civil service" option. It is still forced labour and violates human rights. Hire people or let them be, that also applies to the state. I have plans with my life, I can't just give a year here and a year there for some random governmental institution that forces me to mostly stand outside and wait or humiliate myself in front of sadistic military superiors.

Well then we have a different set of values on one's role in society, I believe that civil service needs to be highly encouraged if not mandatory, I would even put something like a voluntary social year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_social_year) as a mandatory activity in a university or college and some institutions do have that where you need to vulenteer for a few semesters during your degree.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#48

Post by exstudent2 »

legodt wrote: post #44
exstudent2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that it makes it ok but far more men than women are killed in the streets without repercussions. Men are also way more represented in prison which I think has an undeniable rape culture. That's not even touching on male underrepresentation in higher education... Men and women both face unique challenges in the west. In many very real ways men are getting the short end of the stick. The problem a lot of people hav…

Parent post here. And, you know what? You're very right about a lot of things. You might be really interested in hearing Bell Hooks speak (she has a lot of awesome talks up on YouTube). She talks a great deal about how feminism is for everyone and the patriarchal structures we live under harm both men and women greatly. Men being killed in the street are not being killed for being men, unlike women who are killed for…

We probably agree on many things but I do fundamentally disagree with the concept of a "patriarchy" (in the west). There's no need to gender what is essentially a synonym for institutionalized power. A lot of that power favors women (c.f. our educational system).

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#49

Post by lixquid »

legodt wrote: post #33
Kenji wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rape culture? In the west? Explain. Rape incidents have never been lower in America than in the last few years, as shown by fbi.gov and other governmental intitutes. And this despite many efforts of encouraging victims of rape to speak out. And despite the fact that falsely accusing someone of rape has no repercussions whatsoever.

Rape culture is not measured quantitatively by rapes reported/estimated. Please either go back to your men's rights hideyhole or actively get off the internet and start speaking to women active in the space of feminism to educate yourself on the subject. I will not be responding to you further

It seems detrimental to the cause to simply say "You are wrong, your evidence is wrong, and I'm not going to tell you why.", let alone the unnecessary insults.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#50

Post by Kenji »

dogma1138 wrote: post #47
Kenji wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway does not have a compulsory conscription they only elect to enlist those who are motivated to do so and you can object without any legal repercussions. That is weird because a few years ago I had a friend from Norway and he was forced to serve. There were ways out - like the mental health route, but that left you with rather unpleasant entries in databases you'd rather not be in. I forgot about the Swiss, but i…

>That is weird because a few years ago I had a friend from Norway and he was forced to serve. There were ways out - like the mental health route, but that left you with rather unpleasant entries in databases you'd rather not be in. I have family and friends in Norway there are tons of easy way outs, they don't even call the majority of people if you don't show up or refuse early they don't bother asking you twice. I…

That's funny how that works in Norway. In Switzerland, if you ignore all the letters of conscription you get fines and after some years, you will be visited by two very kind policemen who put you in prison.

Hmm, that is interesting. What is the benefit of such a social year, as opposed to having the youngsters start either an apprenticeship, where they can learn a trade, or continue and finish their education, and then get into the workforce? If such social labour has to be done, it should be paid accordingly and people should not be forced to do it in my eyes.

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