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Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

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Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#21

Post by skoczymroczny »

pjc50 wrote: post #5
docdeek wrote: post #3

"More recently Qandeel Baloch, who came from a village in Pakistan's Punjab region, used social media to gain celebrity by posting provocative selfies online. Known as the Kim Kardashian of Pakistan, she challenged Pakistani social norms by embracing the sexualised culture of the internet - until she was strangled by her brother in July this year for bringing shame on the family.” That paragraph got dark real fast.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

> And people wonder why feminism is important.

Feminism helps to gain fame by posting provocative selfies?

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#22

Post by vlehto »

w_t_payne wrote: post #6

In this age of information, an excess of social conservatism is a systemic weakness for a culture; perhaps an existential weakness.

How so? The social conservatives seem to be able to kill people. The only reason why they are so rare in west is lack of popularity.

If they don't suffer from such unpopularity somewhere, then they seem to have all the cards in their hands.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#23

Post by legodt »

Kenji wrote: post #14
pjc50 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries And men have conscription in 2016. The problem is that feminism is loudest where it's least needed. I.e. in the western world, where women are arguably even better off than men in many cases. I want to see feminism in islamo-fascist countries, where it's needed, not in the free west.

Hahahahahahaha. No. Women in the West do not have it better than men by a long shot. We have a presidential candidate threatenjng to sue to silence all accusers of sexual assault towards him. We have trans women of color being killed daily in the streets with no repercussions. And we have white dudes on the internet claiming conscription is just as bad as living under a society dominated by rape culture. Get out of your own head

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#24

Post by vbezhenar »

pjc50 wrote: post #5
docdeek wrote: post #3

"More recently Qandeel Baloch, who came from a village in Pakistan's Punjab region, used social media to gain celebrity by posting provocative selfies online. Known as the Kim Kardashian of Pakistan, she challenged Pakistani social norms by embracing the sexualised culture of the internet - until she was strangled by her brother in July this year for bringing shame on the family.” That paragraph got dark real fast.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

May be I don't understand meaning of words, but it's not about feminism, it's about generic human rights. She happened to be female, but there are for sure oppressed males as well (who don't want to play by that society rules).

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#25

Post by dogma1138 »

digi_owl wrote: post #19
dogma1138 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sadly not uncommon, it just was a fairly famous case because she had a lot of followers in the west. Honor killings are sadly the norm in many parts of the world, and are not even that rare anymore in the west at least as far as Europe goes.

I don't think they ever was rare in the west, they just took on a different character. Anyone recall hearing on the news about a "family tragedy" where a family was found dead, apparently at the hands of the father killing his wife and children? While i am unsure if there is any real research done on those i suspect that said father has run into bad news of some kind, felt he can no longer perform his role as the man…

Well family killings yeah, but honor killings are a specific category since they are almost unilaterally target women who "dishonored" the family for expressing their agency.

Not saying they are inherently worse than any other tragedy they are just well defined.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#26

Post by pjc50 »

digi_owl wrote: post #20
67726e wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The line between people sending death threats on twitter and the person who strangled his sister for posting selfies is very thin. Not to make light of folks sending death threats, but I would imagine that can mostly be written off as shitty trolls. In my experience there is a large jump between someone saying "I'm gonna kick your ass" and actually attempting to kick my ass, and that's when it is being said to me p…

I can't help see a uptick in this activity after labels like anonymous got MSM attention. Being an amorphous blob that barely had the fawkes mask as a symbol allowed people to feel like they had the backing of a group when spewing their vitriol.

I don't think it requires that mask, people are happy to do it with anonymous twitter eggs, anime avatars, or (if they feel they have enough social support) presidential campaigns.

There does seem to have been a rise since I first started on the internet, but I'm not sure when I'd date it to.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#27

Post by dogma1138 »

Kenji wrote: post #14
pjc50 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries And men have conscription in 2016. The problem is that feminism is loudest where it's least needed. I.e. in the western world, where women are arguably even better off than men in many cases. I want to see feminism in islamo-fascist countries, where it's needed, not in the free west.

>And men have conscription in 2016.

The only 2 western countries that still have conscription which are Norway (non compulsory conscription but still an active one nonetheless) and Israel treat men and women equally in this regard.

That said as far as conflict goes there are biological reasons to favor men on average they are considerably stronger and while it's not pleasant to hear they are not as important for the reproductive cycle as women. One man can impregnate virtually an unlimited amount of women especially with IVF while on the other hand women are effectively the reproductive bottleneck of our species, hence the side that loses a larger population of it's women would be at a great disadvantage. And while this might not be consciously being considered like many things unconsciously this is a pretty important factor - "save the women and children first" isn't some old fashioned patriarchal gender role, this is just an outcome of a biological constraint that affects us as a species.

EDIT: As the poster below me gracefully reminded I forgot about the Swiss.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#28

Post by Kenji »

legodt wrote: post #23
Kenji wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries And men have conscription in 2016. The problem is that feminism is loudest where it's least needed. I.e. in the western world, where women are arguably even better off than men in many cases. I want to see feminism in islamo-fascist countries, where it's needed, not in the free west.

Hahahahahahaha. No. Women in the West do not have it better than men by a long shot. We have a presidential candidate threatenjng to sue to silence all accusers of sexual assault towards him. We have trans women of color being killed daily in the streets with no repercussions. And we have white dudes on the internet claiming conscription is just as bad as living under a society dominated by rape culture. Get out of y…

Rape culture? In the west? Explain. Rape incidents have never been lower in America than in the last few years, as shown by fbi.gov and other governmental intitutes. And this despite many efforts of encouraging victims of rape to speak out. And despite the fact that falsely accusing someone of rape has no repercussions whatsoever.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#29

Post by legodt »

saiya-jin wrote: post #12
pjc50 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

feminism in the true meaning is very important, and it's mission might be +-over in the west, but a lot of work to be done elsewhere. i have an issue though with so called feminist women that don't care about gender equality, but they want just all the benefits for them, without other parts that naturally come with them (ie be always treated like a princess but as equal at the same time - come on, we're not schizophr…

Although there are not easily comparable atrocities going on often in the West, that does not end the need for feminism out here. Maybe it does for you because at this point it doesn't affect you directly, but we still have a deeply entrenched rape culture where brock turners and Donald Trumps can get away with assault in a very public way. Heck, turn on the tv and just listen for a while. The culture here is still very sexist. Rape victims are still terrified to come forward in America because of the culture stacked against them. I get what you are trying to say but it does not sound like you are fully educated on the matter and it comes across as a narrow world view. Look into intersectionality in feminism and then some discussions about the garbage fire that is colloquially referred to as "white feminism," which is what I believe you are trying to denounce in your post.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#30

Post by Kenji »

dogma1138 wrote: post #27
Kenji wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries And men have conscription in 2016. The problem is that feminism is loudest where it's least needed. I.e. in the western world, where women are arguably even better off than men in many cases. I want to see feminism in islamo-fascist countries, where it's needed, not in the free west.

>And men have conscription in 2016. The only 2 western countries that still have conscription which are Norway (non compulsory conscription but still an active one nonetheless) and Israel treat men and women equally in this regard. That said as far as conflict goes there are biological reasons to favor men on average they are considerably stronger and while it's not pleasant to hear they are not as important for the…

The only 2 western countries that still have conscription which are Norway (non compulsory conscription) and Israel treat men and women equally in this regard.

Get your facts straight. Norway has compulsory conscription. So does Switzerland. So does Turkey (well, after what's happened there in the last few years, you truly cannot consider it 'western' anymore, but it's a country that wants into the EU). Germany only very recently suspended conscription. It is still a problem. Israel is one of the few countries where I can at least see why they have conscription, they permanently have to be on guard because they are surrounded by countries whose leaders are outspoken about wanting to eradicate them completely.

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