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Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

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Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#11

Post by wastedhours »

ireadfaces wrote: post #2

I feel very disturbed when I hear all this. I do my part, whenever I hear someone saying something degrading for woman, even as a joke, I object. Because i know, that even if it is said as a joke, if it is being said over and over, you tend to think that's the way it works. Many a times, things happened not just because someone did something, but because someone did not do what he should have done to stop something f…

The issue with that is of course not the joking - I'm firmly of the belief jokes can be made on any subject and shouldn't be taboo, so long as both parties (teller and listener) equally know it's a joke. Unfortunately, it's an issue when (whether due to intelligence, naivety or misaligned personalities) the fact something's a joke isn't shared, however I don't think objecting to something you interpret as a joke, and you know is being told as a joke, is the right course of action.

But then, I need to check my own privilege to be fair.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#12

Post by saiya-jin »

pjc50 wrote: post #5
docdeek wrote: post #3

"More recently Qandeel Baloch, who came from a village in Pakistan's Punjab region, used social media to gain celebrity by posting provocative selfies online. Known as the Kim Kardashian of Pakistan, she challenged Pakistani social norms by embracing the sexualised culture of the internet - until she was strangled by her brother in July this year for bringing shame on the family.” That paragraph got dark real fast.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

feminism in the true meaning is very important, and it's mission might be +-over in the west, but a lot of work to be done elsewhere.

i have an issue though with so called feminist women that don't care about gender equality, but they want just all the benefits for them, without other parts that naturally come with them (ie be always treated like a princess but as equal at the same time - come on, we're not schizophrenics, and so on - list could be endless).

most of them don't care much about what is happening in truly oppressive places around the globe (yeah, it's horrible! can you name few cases? what???), they just found another way to yell at others and express life frustrations, and at this time most don't have balls to actually argue to not be labeled sexist and whatnot.

you think I am talking about some imaginary caricatures - far from that, and those beings give feminism a very bad name and prohibit the whole movement to be taken seriously in some circles. too loud where it doesn't matter anymore, and too quiet where it should.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#13

Post by 67726e »

pjc50 wrote: post #5
docdeek wrote: post #3

"More recently Qandeel Baloch, who came from a village in Pakistan's Punjab region, used social media to gain celebrity by posting provocative selfies online. Known as the Kim Kardashian of Pakistan, she challenged Pakistani social norms by embracing the sexualised culture of the internet - until she was strangled by her brother in July this year for bringing shame on the family.” That paragraph got dark real fast.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

> The line between people sending death threats on twitter and the person who strangled his sister for posting selfies is very thin.

Not to make light of folks sending death threats, but I would imagine that can mostly be written off as shitty trolls. In my experience there is a large jump between someone saying "I'm gonna kick your ass" and actually attempting to kick my ass, and that's when it is being said to me personally. Threatening people online seems very trite, and toothless. Saying this as someone who has been swatted, I think the line between Twitter threats and a fake hostage call is pretty thin. The line between a Twitter threat and murder seems pretty damn wide to me.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#14

Post by Kenji »

pjc50 wrote: post #5
docdeek wrote: post #3

"More recently Qandeel Baloch, who came from a village in Pakistan's Punjab region, used social media to gain celebrity by posting provocative selfies online. Known as the Kim Kardashian of Pakistan, she challenged Pakistani social norms by embracing the sexualised culture of the internet - until she was strangled by her brother in July this year for bringing shame on the family.” That paragraph got dark real fast.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries

And men have conscription in 2016.

The problem is that feminism is loudest where it's least needed. I.e. in the western world, where women are arguably even better off than men in many cases. I want to see feminism in islamo-fascist countries, where it's needed, not in the free west.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#15

Post by fatdog »

pjc50 wrote: post #5
docdeek wrote: post #3

"More recently Qandeel Baloch, who came from a village in Pakistan's Punjab region, used social media to gain celebrity by posting provocative selfies online. Known as the Kim Kardashian of Pakistan, she challenged Pakistani social norms by embracing the sexualised culture of the internet - until she was strangled by her brother in July this year for bringing shame on the family.” That paragraph got dark real fast.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

Terrible stories, but they cross into agitprop outrage porn.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#16

Post by tremon »

w_t_payne wrote: post #6

In this age of information, an excess of social conservatism is a systemic weakness for a culture; perhaps an existential weakness.

this isn't (just) conservatism though: it is social repression; the conservatism just attempts to keep it that way.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#17

Post by digi_owl »

pjc50 wrote: post #10
personjerry wrote: post #8

One thing I find ironic is that we talk about bringing feminism to non-westernized countries like Pakistan, when Japan, one of the favored trading partners of Western countries, is full of stigma against the educated and working woman because of their "traditional" cultural views. Where are the feminists and the media for this cause?

One of the things that feminists tend to be aware of is that feminism isn't something you airdrop onto a culture, it has to be changed from within. And the voice of foreigners is often small or even counterproductive. How would "Europeans bringing feminism to America" play out? I get the impression from the election culture war that it would go down badly. It's often more effective to focus on local issues where you…

This is not limited to feminism in any way what so ever.

Any change to a nation/culture/group/whatever has to come from within. And any pressure for change from outside may well just harden the status quo, as conservatives turn it into a fight against invaders.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#18

Post by digi_owl »

saiya-jin wrote: post #12
pjc50 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

feminism in the true meaning is very important, and it's mission might be +-over in the west, but a lot of work to be done elsewhere. i have an issue though with so called feminist women that don't care about gender equality, but they want just all the benefits for them, without other parts that naturally come with them (ie be always treated like a princess but as equal at the same time - come on, we're not schizophr…

Sadly there will always be those that grab onto any cause to fuel their own power trip.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#19

Post by digi_owl »

dogma1138 wrote: post #4
docdeek wrote: post #3

"More recently Qandeel Baloch, who came from a village in Pakistan's Punjab region, used social media to gain celebrity by posting provocative selfies online. Known as the Kim Kardashian of Pakistan, she challenged Pakistani social norms by embracing the sexualised culture of the internet - until she was strangled by her brother in July this year for bringing shame on the family.” That paragraph got dark real fast.

This is sadly not uncommon, it just was a fairly famous case because she had a lot of followers in the west. Honor killings are sadly the norm in many parts of the world, and are not even that rare anymore in the west at least as far as Europe goes.

I don't think they ever was rare in the west, they just took on a different character. Anyone recall hearing on the news about a "family tragedy" where a family was found dead, apparently at the hands of the father killing his wife and children?

While i am unsure if there is any real research done on those i suspect that said father has run into bad news of some kind, felt he can no longer perform his role as the man of the house, and decide to take everyone with him as he goes.

Re: Sex, honour, shame and blackmail in an online world

#20

Post by digi_owl »

67726e wrote: post #13
pjc50 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people wonder why feminism is important. It's not just a non-western phenomenon. The church in Ireland operated a system of forced labour detention for women considered "immoral" known as the Magdalene Laundries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland . The last one closed in 1996. There was eventually a state apology and compensation, but astonishingly as far as I can tell nobody has even b…

> The line between people sending death threats on twitter and the person who strangled his sister for posting selfies is very thin. Not to make light of folks sending death threats, but I would imagine that can mostly be written off as shitty trolls. In my experience there is a large jump between someone saying "I'm gonna kick your ass" and actually attempting to kick my ass, and that's when it is being said to me p…

I can't help see a uptick in this activity after labels like anonymous got MSM attention.

Being an amorphous blob that barely had the fawkes mask as a symbol allowed people to feel like they had the backing of a group when spewing their vitriol.

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