Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong • Hacker News Board

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#181

Post by jomamaxx » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 1:05 AM UTC

tankenmate wrote: post #47

dogma1138 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be on it, being poor in America still means you have more money than everyone in the world, including more than the middle class in most EU nations. Social mobility in Europe is also really not great especially once you adjust for the immigration, you also need to account for the fact that social mobility studies in Europe are based on the income level of parents and grandparents, both WW2/Eastern Block an…

Actually being poor in America is worse than being poor in most other OECD nations; most first world countries have unemployment benefits that don't have time limits (they may have performance limits, i.e. you need to apply for X amount of jobs per week, etc). A number of them have free health care (and even some 2nd world countries have this). A non trivial number have free university education, or a university educ…

Despite your claims about socialization of higher education - which is perfectly true - America actually graduates a lot more people out of college than European countries. A lot more.

There is a better 'safety net' in most European countries, but there is a lot more opportunity in America. It's 100% true that 'anyone can make it' - as long as 'making it' means having a job, owning a home, in a regular place like Cleveland or Pittsburg or whatever.

Europe has a much, much stronger class system than the US.

American companies have tons of workers and professionals who came from poor situations. Europe is not like that at all.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#182

Post by xapata » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 1:07 AM UTC

blfr wrote: post #111

michael_h wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's 'high IQ'->'higher income'. You are implying 'higher income'->'high IQ', of which there are multitudes of counterexamples.

There are always lottery winners. It's not a perfect correlation.

Ah, the No True Scotsman defense.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#183

Post by jomamaxx » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 1:10 AM UTC

adamnemecek wrote: post #7

dudul wrote: post #2

It sucks, but what's the solution? Because let's face it, the primary purpose of "being rich" is to provide for one's family, at least from my point of view. If I work my ass off it's to make sure I can help my kids do better than I did. What's the point of being "wealthy" if it's not to help your kids have a better life than your own? I don't want to sound insensitive. All these studies about kids born in poverty an…

Fix the fucking educational system and stop wasting people's time.

"Fix the fucking educational system and stop wasting people's time."

America spends more % of it's GDP and more $ / capita than any nation on earth.

America graduates far more people from college than any European country.

European Americans score better than Europeans on standardized testing.

Same for all ethnic groups: Asian Americans do better than Asians, African Americans do better than Africans etc..

The reason America - on average - fares a little lower than Europe has to do with it's ethnic composition. BTW - I'm not saying that some ethnic groups / races are 'smarter' than others, but that literacy, attitudes towards education etc. are multigenerational things, and most Latino Americans and African Americans are only about 1.5 generations fully literate, so it will take some time to fully catch up.

In fact - if you account for ethnicity - America has the best schools in the world - wherever they come in from - they do better than they would have from whence they came.

I'm not saying American schools are perfect or whatever - but it's worth noting that if you look at the facts, they don't fit the whole 'American schools are crap' narrative. It's more nuanced than that.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#184

Post by argonaut » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 1:11 AM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #152

ccallebs wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think this explains quite a bit. I grew up fairly poor (single income household in Appalachia). I had to train myself out of a lot of speech patterns / mannerisms that don't fly in other parts of America. It's unfortunate, but the stereotype of inbred white trash is still alive and strong when most people hear Appalachian drawls. They hear the way we talk and immediately think we're ignorant. It's an open…

I'd go so far as to argue that it's harder to get by as a white Appalachian than as a black urbanite. Plenty of people & programmes care about the latter; few about the former.

That may be true, but the white Appalachian can learn to switch accents/mannerisms (code switch). A black urbanite (who may already have had to learn to code switch, depending on where they grew up) can't change their skin color.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#185

Post by flukus » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 1:11 AM UTC

jomamaxx wrote: post #181

tankenmate wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually being poor in America is worse than being poor in most other OECD nations; most first world countries have unemployment benefits that don't have time limits (they may have performance limits, i.e. you need to apply for X amount of jobs per week, etc). A number of them have free health care (and even some 2nd world countries have this). A non trivial number have free university education, or a university educ…

Despite your claims about socialization of higher education - which is perfectly true - America actually graduates a lot more people out of college than European countries. A lot more. There is a better 'safety net' in most European countries, but there is a lot more opportunity in America. It's 100% true that 'anyone can make it' - as long as 'making it' means having a job, owning a home, in a regular place like Cle…

> Despite your claims about socialization of higher education - which is perfectly true - America actually graduates a lot more people out of college than European countries. A lot more.

A lot of what would be a college degree in the US is done though trade schools in Europe. I also think there are much stricter requirements on what the degree is in most countries, as in the won't fund a lot of arts degrees.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#186

Post by jamie_ » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 1:15 AM UTC

badminton1 wrote: post #166

Well, that's what economical disadvantage is about. A rich student can afford to attempt to enter a top school many consecutive times, by not having the pressure of having to work as soon as possible. Then once accepted, can afford to have minimum passing grades. A poor student can only enter a top school by earning a scholarship by having good grades, and sometimes that scholarship needs to be maintained by keeping…

To people who agree with this post, I have a genuine question: Is it a general principle of yours that the parents' efforts and accomplishments should not carry on to the child or there should be a limit to the benefit? Aren't you ignoring that, excluding historic inequities, rich people's parents didn't grow money on a tree? If Rob Rich's and Pete Pauper's grandparents had the same opportunities, but Rich's used their resources more wisely, made better decisions and fewer mistakes, shouldn't Rich benefit from that? Or is it that you think most old money is tainted? If so, do you have a # of generations in mind beyond which the money should become common good instead of go to heirs?

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#187

Post by tajen » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 1:27 AM UTC

rhgraysonii wrote: post #167

Gustomaximus wrote: post #154

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

This really hits home for me. I once had a conversation with a very, very experienced developer who ran a local meetup and was discussing salary options at a new job. He balked when I told them what I asked for, and replied: "Just because you grew up as poor as me doesn't mean you should fear wealth. If it makes you feel that guilty take the shit and donate it to charity." And its really true. My first engineering jo…

My father was a high school director. It was a 900-student school for lowerclass jobs, with... well, many lowerclass situations with students who hadn't necessarily ever touched a phone, in the 80s. Part of the job was managing financial resources and deciding of his own salary. He decided to lower it, because he didn't feel like he needed that much. And he decided to apply it retroactively upon two years. He gave money back to his school. I wonder whether I'm plain selfish for thinking he would have had better credit taking the money (even to give it to charities) than returning money to a public institution. But I find the gesture admirable.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#188

Post by photogrammetry » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 1:31 AM UTC

Mz wrote: post #173

dreamdu5t wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you're homeless?

It is a long story, rooted in the aforementioned incurable medical condition. Serious health problems are a common root cause or contributing factor to homelessness. (Source: I had a college class on homelessness and public policy some years prior to ending up on the street.) At this point, if I could come up with a few thousand dollars in relatively short order, I believe I could get off the street under circumstanc…

Could you elaborate on your living conditions a little more? What is stopping you from gaining a place of residence?

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#189

Post by maxt » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 1:32 AM UTC

There is an old proverb my grandmother used to say: "My house is my castle, my cheap cotton silken, my wooden chair, made of gold". My take from that saying was that our current economics is all gold-backed economics, and that we express the value of something only in terms of how much we value gold. The moment you unlearn that gold is valuable, or has some innate intrinsic value is the moment you can replace gold with your own version of value. That is to say, the currency you use is the language you are speaking in your society. If nobody speaks your language, the task is on you to disseminate your language and propagate it, and this can be tough. This is where the 'hard work' ethic does apply. It's easy to talk gold; not so easy to convince us of silver being more valuable.

Some might argue that gold merely enables us to create these abstract forms of currencies, or in some cases, economies, in the first place, but actually they could form in pirate utopias that have little or no scaffolding at all, or exist cybernetically, for example, like Bitcoin or Ethereum. A bit of a chicken and egg situation, of course, where gold bootstraps /enables the other alternatives. But frankly I think we are left with no other choice. We either innovate our way out of gold backed economics (using gold) or we don't prosper and thrive.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#190

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 25, 2016, 1:36 AM UTC

photogrammetry wrote: post #188

Mz wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a long story, rooted in the aforementioned incurable medical condition. Serious health problems are a common root cause or contributing factor to homelessness. (Source: I had a college class on homelessness and public policy some years prior to ending up on the street.) At this point, if I could come up with a few thousand dollars in relatively short order, I believe I could get off the street under circumstanc…

Could you elaborate on your living conditions a little more? What is stopping you from gaining a place of residence?

[deleted]