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Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

washingtonpost.com

161–170 of 308 posts

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#161

    "It's an educational arms race that's leaving many kids 
    far, far behind."
This isn't a bad thing. It's an educational arms race that is moving the human race forward faster. Communities that have placed emphasis on education early on have not only typically outperformed their peers, but also add a lot to human knowledge.

    Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 870 individuals, of 
    whom 185 - over 21.264% - were Jewish or people of Jewish 
    descent, although Jews and people of Jewish descent 
    comprise less than 0.2% of the world's population (or 1 in 
    every 500 people).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates

Furthermore, I don't understand the criticism regarding "opportunity hoarding". I don't have children yet, but I hope to have children in a few years once I've built the amount of wealth I would like to have before embarking on that adventure. I don't yet feel like I've built the amount of wealth necessary to provide my children with enough of a competitive advantage to succeed in the 21st century. If I've worked hard to create opportunities for my children, why should I give them away to someone who is not my child?

It's not "rigging the game". Saying that it is rigging the game is a misunderstanding of the game. The game spans multiple generations. The game isn't reset every generation. That's not a game I want to play. My parents were my teammates and my children will also be my teammates.

The criticism of pitfalls out there (e.g. degree mills, payday loans) that entrap and deprive people of opportunities is totally fair, but criticizing the decision to spend the wealth one has earned to their progeny seems like wanting to change the rules of the game.

Wealth inequality itself isn't the problem. Not having access to basic necessities (health, education, sustenance, shelter and the Internet) upon which an individual can start building their wealth is. I think it's reasonable to pay a certain amount to level the playing field at the bottom so those that are determined and principled can reasonably begin creating wealth, but that's a totally different goal compared to reducing wealth inequality. Basic income for example would be a great way to begin meeting needs so individuals can start building wealth.

If wealth inequality were the problem, the 10% should complain about the 1% and the 1% should complain about the 0.1% and the 0.1% should complain about the 0.01%, so on and so forth.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#162

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

I've seen this referred to as a "growth mindset".

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#163

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

I was just getting ready to make a reply along the lines of who cares what outcomes for rich kids are as long as there is opportunity for non rich kids. That is to say, who cares if little Richie Ritch will succeed 100% of the time because of his wealth, as long as your average poor can succeed provided they put in the work (i.e., isn't denied opportunity).

Your comment took a way different direction than I was expecting and genuinely made me reflect.

You see, I grew up extremely poor (yes, those "hoods" you hear about), and figure it's possible to make it out. But, I do do what you mentioned above A LOT. To the point that some times I feel guilty expensing my cell phone even though it's a perk.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#164

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

For anyone interested in digging into this concept, read up on "Impostor Syndrome".

https://counseling.caltech.edu/general/InfoandResources/Impo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#165

This is presented as if this opinion journalist found a causative relationship when he's done no such thing. He's just looking at correlations and then shoehorning in his favorite explanations (glass floors, glass ceilings, diploma mills). Take a look at his previous articles and maybe you'll identify a trend: https://www.washingtonpost.com/people/matt-obrien/

This is a much better analysis on social mobility:

https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress.com/2016/05/09/my-r...

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#166
Well, that's what economical disadvantage is about.

A rich student can afford to attempt to enter a top school many consecutive times, by not having the pressure of having to work as soon as possible. Then once accepted, can afford to have minimum passing grades.

A poor student can only enter a top school by earning a scholarship by having good grades, and sometimes that scholarship needs to be maintained by keeping certain grades. A poor student might also need to work to supplement his income since the scholarship might not cover all costs. So less time to socialize and relax.

Then, there's also a disadvantage of food, health, housing, risk of being exposed to bad influences, physical security.

So it's a little bit of a rigged game.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#167

An event that will always stay with me, some years ago I a job opened up where I would have some sway in recommending candidates. I had a uni friend who would fit the role well. A great bloke, smart and hard working. He came from a very blue collar, low income background. His job was pretty middle of the road stuff. This job would have been lateral in responsibility but in a better industry giving about 2+ times sala…

This really hits home for me.

I once had a conversation with a very, very experienced developer who ran a local meetup and was discussing salary options at a new job. He balked when I told them what I asked for, and replied:

"Just because you grew up as poor as me doesn't mean you should fear wealth. If it makes you feel that guilty take the shit and donate it to charity."

And its really true.

My first engineering job I made almost 3x what my mother ever made in a year over her entire life's highest salary.

I was a college dropout that was enthusiastic and knew enough to be functional.

It really is a strange, new thing to come from nothing and all of a sudden be able to go out to eat at an Applebee's without worrying about your finances for a month.

Edit: The first thing I did after collecting my first 'engineering paycheck' was go out to Applebees and get an appetizer, a drink, AND an entree, and then proceed to not worry about it.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#168

This doesn't seem particularly remarkable to me. > Specifically, rich high school dropouts remain in the top about as much as poor college grads stay stuck in the bottom — 14 versus 16 percent, respectively. They're saying social mobility (up or down) is attainable for 85% of each group. And graduating college is not really the same as making all the right choices...

The linked PDF's conclusions and figures gives a bit more context; the numbers are not 85%. From the PDF, rich means the top 20th percentile of income, whereas poor is the bottom 20th percentile. For the dropouts, you only have a 46% chance of mobility if you're poor. For the college graduates, only 63% of the rich will be downward bound. Another interesting bit: a poor dropout is more likely to remain poor as a rich…

> A rich college graduate has almost 2x the chance of remaining rich as a poor graduate has of getting rich.

This is all super fuzzy and almost impossible to interpret. It sounds to me like people are becoming rich at some rate, and staying rich at a higher rate. Seems like it would lead to everyone being rich, in the end (though these are quintile numbers, so it's a relative ranking, so I assume some other outcomes are available that make things balance).

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#169
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be a very HN comment since I learned most of it here from 'gwern (not Ayn Rand): https://www.gwern.net/iq

Given the issues the social sciences have with reproducible results, that Gwern is linking more science blogs than papers, and that we know rich people have conspired to hold poor people back via laws and other self serving maneuvers I'm still going to lean into "bullshit" category When you have evidence that the supposedly smart and highly moral are guilty of oppressing an entire swath of people and you point at mos…

Behavioural Genetics isn't a social science and there's nothing in what the poster above you said that wouldn't be in an undergraduate textbook.

Re: Poor kids who do things right don't do better than rich kids who do things wrong

#170
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think this explains quite a bit. I grew up fairly poor (single income household in Appalachia). I had to train myself out of a lot of speech patterns / mannerisms that don't fly in other parts of America. It's unfortunate, but the stereotype of inbred white trash is still alive and strong when most people hear Appalachian drawls. They hear the way we talk and immediately think we're ignorant. It's an open…

I'd go so far as to argue that it's harder to get by as a white Appalachian than as a black urbanite. Plenty of people & programmes care about the latter; few about the former.

No you misunderstand people talk about and pretend to care about the latter. Unless you actually know what those experiences are like. It is very unlikely that a white man is going to go to the top graduate school in the country and discover that they don't give white people Phds. Black people can't say the same.
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