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Why you should never use Upwork

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Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#161

Post by Turing_Machine »

detaro wrote: post #155
Turing_Machine wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you confusing "programming" with "typing"? How does taking screenshots let you know that the person is thinking? Okay, yeah, the guy who was looking at "Boob Forest" wasn't working, but just because you don't see a constant stream of keystrokes appearing on-screen doesn't mean a programmer isn't working. Edit: this famous story comes to mind. http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lin...

Do you really think that he didn't do anything visible for hours and then had a magic spark that led him to delete 2000 lines? GP was careful to only point out strong negative signals. Even if you do a lot of work on paper you're going to look stuff up online or in the code base, which is visible on screen. That doesn't mean that this tool can't be abused in both directions, but it seems like an unfair critique of th…

"Do you really think that he didn't do anything visible for hours and then had a magic spark that led him to delete 2000 lines?"

OP said something about "not seeing anything on the screen for an hour or more". Not multiple hours. I would almost guarantee that Atkinson thought about the Quickdraw problem for more than an hour before coming up with his insight. I know he wasn't "looking it up online" because, you know, that didn't exist in 1982.

If I'm thinking about something really hard while working at home, I go in my bedroom and close my eyes. That looks just like I'm sleeping, but, you know, I'm hard at work. Sometimes I take a shower.

I think the attitude that "typing" = "programming" has much to do with the popularity of languages like Java that encourage the production of reams of code with very low semantic content.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#162

Post by Asooka »

Mithaldu wrote: post #120
almata wrote: post #69

From the Upwork FAQ: "You'll need to download and use the Upwork Team App—this tool includes the Work Diary, which ensures you are guaranteed payment. By taking work-in-progress screenshots every 10 minutes, it provides proof to your clients that you are hard at work." Screenshots every 10 minutes? You mean... screenshots of MY SCREEN every 10 minutes? That was what made me close their website and totally forget it u…

I can understand why some would not like this, and maybe it's because i'm german, but i do not mind this at all. Here's why: If i'm employed in an office and working at my work pc, not only is the machine often administrated by the company i am doing work for, and thus may have additional software in there, even if it's as simple as a VNC server. It is also on their premises and the screen plainly visible to cameras…

> When i'm in the office i'm supposed to be working, and the machine is supposed to be used for work purposes. Not for entertainment or other personal things.

I don't know one engineer who actually does this. The company doesn't own you. They can't dictate your life, thinking anything else is wrong. You own the labour, ergo you own the company, if their business process can't fit itself in your life, they can fuck right off.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#163

Post by Mithaldu »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #161
detaro wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think that he didn't do anything visible for hours and then had a magic spark that led him to delete 2000 lines? GP was careful to only point out strong negative signals. Even if you do a lot of work on paper you're going to look stuff up online or in the code base, which is visible on screen. That doesn't mean that this tool can't be abused in both directions, but it seems like an unfair critique of th…

"Do you really think that he didn't do anything visible for hours and then had a magic spark that led him to delete 2000 lines?" OP said something about "not seeing anything on the screen for an hour or more". Not multiple hours. I would almost guarantee that Atkinson thought about the Quickdraw problem for more than an hour before coming up with his insight. I know he wasn't "looking it up online" because, you know,…

You're assuming that the OP doesn't know whether the specific task he set the freelancer to includes the possibility of a lengthy amount of planning and preparation outside the computer, without even referring to any material on the computer, or not.

That's a fairly strong assumption and your subthread here would've gone a lot better if you'd started it by asking whether your assumption is correct or not.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#164

Post by Turing_Machine »

Mithaldu wrote: post #163
Turing_Machine wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do you really think that he didn't do anything visible for hours and then had a magic spark that led him to delete 2000 lines?" OP said something about "not seeing anything on the screen for an hour or more". Not multiple hours. I would almost guarantee that Atkinson thought about the Quickdraw problem for more than an hour before coming up with his insight. I know he wasn't "looking it up online" because, you know,…

You're assuming that the OP doesn't know whether the specific task he set the freelancer to includes the possibility of a lengthy amount of planning and preparation outside the computer, without even referring to any material on the computer, or not. That's a fairly strong assumption and your subthread here would've gone a lot better if you'd started it by asking whether your assumption is correct or not.

"You're assuming that the OP doesn't know..."

He is quite clearly incapable of making an accurate estimate of the amount of time, planning, and preparation involved, or he wouldn't need to spy on the programmer to assure himself that the programmer was "working". He'd know just from the number of billed hours.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#165

Post by forgetsusername »

davemel37 wrote: post #86
Mithaldu wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you implying that the freelancers should be making the employers feel small and worthless? He's saying employers should show freelancers respect.

Shouldn't respect be a two way street? His comment implies it should be a one way, just the opposite way of this evil Kevin guy. Edit: Just to be clear, I am drawing my assumption from the second part of his post that tries to correlate "idea guys" to "abusive people", almost as if he equates idea guys that try to hire developers as somehow "less than" him.

>almost as if he equates idea guys that try to hire developers as somehow "less than" him.

I used "idea guys" in quotes because I'm referencing a specific type of person who you may not be familiar with, but I'm sure many other people here are, especially in the freelancing world. If you read the post, you can spot the cliche.

Having an idea, no matter how good it is (and believe me when I say I'm not one of those "ideas are worthless" guys) only gets you so far. At some point you need talented, skilled people to help execute on it. And it's far easier for the execution guys to crib an idea than it is for the idea guy to copy the execution skills.

Basically, the "idea guys" like to place themselves at the top of the pyramid, and think everyone else owes them something.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#166

Post by brian-armstrong »

Mithaldu wrote: post #159
brian-armstrong wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you accidentally revealed a private key on the screen during the screenshot? Are you willing to forfeit 10 minutes of time to keep your SSH or whatever else uncompromised? Or are you going to trust Upwork and your client to not somehow leak it, even accidentally?

I delete the segment and enter manual time with an explanation of why i did that. Manual time isn't protected by oDesk in disputes, but in that situation it's fine to use and low risk.

That's fair. What if you didn't notice that it happened?

It seems like dealing with checking for sensitive onscreen information every 10 minutes could be kind of flow-destroying.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#167

Post by coldtea »

Mithaldu wrote: post #145
coldtea wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can understand why some would not like this, and maybe it's because i'm german, but i do not mind this at all. Well, remember where this attitude took Germany in the previous century.... (tongue in cheek)

I'm from the deep east so i know exactly what you mean. :D The difference here is of course that in the DDR you weren't asked if it's ok to listen in on you. ;)

Thanks for taking it lightly, sometimes people are touchy :-)

>The difference here is of course that in the DDR you weren't asked if it's ok to listen in on you. ;)

Yes, but if enough big companies get away with this, then having a choice of "not using Upwork if you don't like it" wont matter much, because you'll be missing where most of the clients are.

In other words, you could still take the principled stance, but it will cost you.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#168

Post by Mithaldu »

Asooka wrote: post #162
Mithaldu wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand why some would not like this, and maybe it's because i'm german, but i do not mind this at all. Here's why: If i'm employed in an office and working at my work pc, not only is the machine often administrated by the company i am doing work for, and thus may have additional software in there, even if it's as simple as a VNC server. It is also on their premises and the screen plainly visible to cameras…

> When i'm in the office i'm supposed to be working, and the machine is supposed to be used for work purposes. Not for entertainment or other personal things. I don't know one engineer who actually does this. The company doesn't own you. They can't dictate your life, thinking anything else is wrong. You own the labour, ergo you own the company, if their business process can't fit itself in your life, they can fuck ri…

Maybe cultural differences. I know a lot of people in Germany who do, and refuse the siren call of throwing Marx' books down in their bosses' offices.

Then again, workers here also enjoy a lot more protections than in other countries, so maybe it's the lack of feeling at odds with the company so much.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#169

Post by xiaoma »

Mithaldu wrote: post #136
almata wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even when I don't agree with you (I may receive a mail notification with some private content) the system is totally useless as I can have an iPad next to my main computer and use it to spend all the time I want doing other stuff. Or just work with two computers. Or whatever.

The time segments would have indicators of low user activity in that case, plus you'd have the exact same screenshot for a long time in a row. Yes, you can game it even so, but it would be at least inconvenient for you. Besides, if you do keep the stuff you don't want your client to see on another machine, then there's no reason to worry about being "spied" on. :)

I often take 15 minute walks to think about thorny problems or use a pen and paper to sketch out designs. Either of those would yield "low user activity" indicators.

It's been years since I've been an employee on any sites like that, but I still think the system is pretty bad. Just start with small projects and then scale up for high performing freelancers and don't offer repeat work to low performers.

Re: Why you should never use Upwork

#170

Post by Mithaldu »

brian-armstrong wrote: post #166
Mithaldu wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I delete the segment and enter manual time with an explanation of why i did that. Manual time isn't protected by oDesk in disputes, but in that situation it's fine to use and low risk.

That's fair. What if you didn't notice that it happened? It seems like dealing with checking for sensitive onscreen information every 10 minutes could be kind of flow-destroying.

There's a fairly noticable popup, that you can also configure to make a sound; and if you're really worried you can review the screenshots in your work diary at the end of the day.
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