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China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

washingtonpost.com

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Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#81

Post by totalZero »

truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

Oh, come on. We have our problems as a society but this is a little much. I have two specific objections.

* The financial crisis was partially a result of mortgages being given to people whose financial data would have suggested that they had no business borrowing so much money. In that case, the opposite of your point is true. This shows that attention to data is beneficial to a mortgage system because it helps avoid questionable loans.

* My friends don't rate my worth, because I don't have friends.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#82

Post by mayukh »

truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

Whats the alternative?

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#83

Post by woodruffw »

truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

As far as I know, none of the agencies you mentioned have individual numerical scores for 330M+ Americans and US residents. The closest thing is credit scores (which the article mentions), which are metered and tracked by private companies under a broad set of federal regulations.

More to the point, your potential employers don't get access to your personal life, beyond what you divulge to them and whatever information they get from public records (sex offender lists, states with public arrest records, &c). They don't know how "good" of a citizen you are, your mental health record, or if you've ever gotten a speeding ticket. China's proposed system opens all of that.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#84

Post by seanmcdirmid »

brian_herman wrote: post #79

I've seen reports of this for at least 6mo to 1yr. Is this vaporware by China or do they have anything more than a press release at this point?

This is something beyond the sesame credit score talked about before.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#85

Post by ctrlalt_g »

hilop wrote: post #53
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #51

My concern is that China will use the scoring to make moral judgments about citizens. Yes, we have credit scores and DMV scores and some of us wind up on white lists (PreCheck) or black lists (No-Fly) for air travel. But determining business risk is different from determining whether someone is a moral or immoral person, and then using that subjectivity to control the population. It's value to the regime is in that s…

What does church have to do with this? We can throw people in jail for "corruption"

In the U.S., the courts can't decide whether something is moral or immoral. If we throw people in jail for corruption, it won't be because they were found guilty of having a bad moral character. It will be because of an illegal conflict of interest or anticompetitive practices or something like that. That's what a separation of church and state means in this context.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#86

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Hondor wrote: post #76
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DMV tracking whether you are driving drunk is not the same as the Chinese govt. tracking whether you praise the govt. on Facebook. > The FBI and CIA I think also collect statistics and profile relevant individuals. Citation needed (especially that they do it for everyone).

The US does track what you say on Facebook to see how much of a terrorist or criminal you might be. Just because you think "praise the government" isn't worthy of reward, doesn't mean it isn't. Afterall, China doesn't have a democracy, so if people are too dissatisfied with the government, instead of voting it out, they might have a revolution, which would be disastrous. In that environment, praising the government c…

China lacks almost any societal pressure valves at all without online dissent and armed revolution is all that's left if people become unsatisfied. "Praising the government" makes people less safe, since honest real public sentiment is well obscured.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#87

Post by vmarsy »

totalZero wrote: post #81
truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

Oh, come on. We have our problems as a society but this is a little much. I have two specific objections. * The financial crisis was partially a result of mortgages being given to people whose financial data would have suggested that they had no business borrowing so much money. In that case, the opposite of your point is true. This shows that attention to data is beneficial to a mortgage system because it helps avoi…

> The financial crisis was partially a result of mortgages being given to people whose financial data would have suggested that they had no business borrowing so much money. In that case, the opposite of your point is true. This shows that attention to data is beneficial to a mortgage system because it helps avoid questionable loans.

Were credit score non existing in 2008? If so, were they completely ignored?

Also, in comparison, European countries with non existing credit scores didn't have a crisis with subprime mortgages, probably because they paid attention case-by-case to the loan applicants. They surely used data, but it does not mean that this data has to be centralized and behind black box algorithms.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#88

Post by dkarapetyan »

rdtsc wrote: post #75

This is wonderful. A fully gamified life. It is so dystopian... America has the credit rating system. With much hand wringing and energy devoted to increasing or altering the score and so on (companies advertising a way to increase it for you, landlords claiming they'll ruin your credit rating if you ask for a deposit refund ...). Now imagine if the system was even more corrupt and you could pay someone under the tab…

Isn't this the case already? The judge will let your nephew walk if you are rich enough. You don't need to be in China for that to be the case. What is wealth if not another point system?

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#89

Post by ap22213 »

truffelion wrote: post #74

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data. The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a…

That's a bit too much hyperbole for me (and the top comment!). Sure, the US has its issues (and, if you're not taking direct action to change it...well). But, live outside the US for a while, and you'll see the difference. For example, live in an ex-soviet country. Experience the doorman to your apartment building taking notes on what you're doing, who you're with, etc. Wait for the doorman and every other 'watcher' to compile this data and report it to your boss. Wait for it to come up in your annual evaluation. I think you'll see the distinction.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#90

Post by rdtsc »

dkarapetyan wrote: post #88
rdtsc wrote: post #75

This is wonderful. A fully gamified life. It is so dystopian... America has the credit rating system. With much hand wringing and energy devoted to increasing or altering the score and so on (companies advertising a way to increase it for you, landlords claiming they'll ruin your credit rating if you ask for a deposit refund ...). Now imagine if the system was even more corrupt and you could pay someone under the tab…

Isn't this the case already? The judge will let your nephew walk if you are rich enough. You don't need to be in China for that to be the case. What is wealth if not another point system?

It is just much more efficient if you can just twiddle a number in a database instead of say having to gift them a house. Or instead of capturing and torturing someone, just lower their "karma" so they can never get a job first. It is about efficiency.
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