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China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

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Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#71

Post by trendia »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #51

My concern is that China will use the scoring to make moral judgments about citizens. Yes, we have credit scores and DMV scores and some of us wind up on white lists (PreCheck) or black lists (No-Fly) for air travel. But determining business risk is different from determining whether someone is a moral or immoral person, and then using that subjectivity to control the population. It's value to the regime is in that s…

The only "morality" the Chinese government cares about is whatever leads to the furtherance of those in power

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#72

Post by usaar333 »

tmptmp wrote: post #68

I feel sad about the Chinese people and people living under communist/Marxist regimes. Communism/Marxism is one of the worst ideologies out there (along with intolerant religions). The western democracy is the best model the humans have invented yet. This is not to say we must not strive to improve it. But Communism/Marxism is not at all an improvement, it's an outright societal cancer. But I am seeing is the increas…

China is not a communist state these days nor I'm not aware of mainstream Western liberals praising communism. (sources on the latter?)

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#73

Post by apatters »

visarga wrote: post #69

Reddit and YC also expose each action to voting and judging, and sum up users into karma scores. We already live in such a rating based moral system. If the reddit karma would decide a person's worth and social rights, that would be pretty dangerous. People would self censor, be less creative, and in general only act in a way that protects the score. It would turn into a kind of self policing.

True, but these are privately owned communities and if you disagree with their standards you can go join some other community or start your own. A Chinese citizen can't exactly go start their own competitor to the Communist Party.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#74

Post by truffelion »

I feel like a crazy person every time I try to point out that North America is already there. We've just done it in a less reductionist manner, in which multiple scores are used for different purposes, because you can discriminate better with better targeted data.

The IRS rates you on likelihood of fraud, border patrol rates you on your likelihood of breaking residency law, the FBI rates everyone's chances of being a terrorist, credit agencies rate your worthiness of a loan, insurance companies rate your chances of being a cost, banks rate your likelihood of paying a mortgage, your friends rate your worth and you let them, and if you're in the media biz everything comes down to a numbers game. Your income is used to sort you into pidgeonholes in virtually every aspect of your interaction with every social institution.

Your worth as a human is already determined by a set of numbers; we've just done it so much better than China, because nobody noticed.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#75

Post by rdtsc »

This is wonderful. A fully gamified life. It is so dystopian...

America has the credit rating system. With much hand wringing and energy devoted to increasing or altering the score and so on (companies advertising a way to increase it for you, landlords claiming they'll ruin your credit rating if you ask for a deposit refund ...).

Now imagine if the system was even more corrupt and you could pay someone under the table to alter your score directly. Now imagine that is not just a number for your credit worthiness, but a number for your, well general-life-worthiness. There is no way that is not getting exploited, hacked into or gamed. Maybe that is the ultimate goal, it lets those who control this system, control the population?

Imagine an implied threat of getting -150 points for joining a protest. Or maybe your relative is going to court, you imply to the judge he might get a +50 if he lets your nephew walk. Possibilities are endless, as they say.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#76

Post by Hondor »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #17
dkarapetyan wrote: post #4

This is what the DMV does with the point system. The FBI and CIA I think also collect statistics and profile relevant individuals. The difference I guess is that most of these systems are in separate silos. The Chinese government is taking the next logical step and linking it all together. Reminds me of a quote Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they shoul…

DMV tracking whether you are driving drunk is not the same as the Chinese govt. tracking whether you praise the govt. on Facebook. > The FBI and CIA I think also collect statistics and profile relevant individuals. Citation needed (especially that they do it for everyone).

The US does track what you say on Facebook to see how much of a terrorist or criminal you might be. Just because you think "praise the government" isn't worthy of reward, doesn't mean it isn't. Afterall, China doesn't have a democracy, so if people are too dissatisfied with the government, instead of voting it out, they might have a revolution, which would be disastrous. In that environment, praising the government can be helpful to keep people safe from violence.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#77

Post by ubernostrum »

apatters wrote: post #73
visarga wrote: post #69

Reddit and YC also expose each action to voting and judging, and sum up users into karma scores. We already live in such a rating based moral system. If the reddit karma would decide a person's worth and social rights, that would be pretty dangerous. People would self censor, be less creative, and in general only act in a way that protects the score. It would turn into a kind of self policing.

True, but these are privately owned communities and if you disagree with their standards you can go join some other community or start your own. A Chinese citizen can't exactly go start their own competitor to the Communist Party.

And yet... credit scores are maintained by private companies, and are inescapable in the US, as are their effects on your opportunities in life.

So "It's a company, not a government" is not a useful argument to make for this kind of situation.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#78

Post by alextooter »

tmptmp wrote: post #68

I feel sad about the Chinese people and people living under communist/Marxist regimes. Communism/Marxism is one of the worst ideologies out there (along with intolerant religions). The western democracy is the best model the humans have invented yet. This is not to say we must not strive to improve it. But Communism/Marxism is not at all an improvement, it's an outright societal cancer. But I am seeing is the increas…

You are total wrong. In fact,today China is not communist/Marxist at all.China is more Capitalism than USA. The word communist/Marxist is only mentioned when holding big meetings.

Re: China’s plan to organize its society relies on ‘big data’ to rate everyone

#80

Post by matt_wulfeck »

I despise this aspect of our field. On the one hand we're ushering in a new era of learning and knowledge. On the other we're creating tools of unprecedented power.

They're searching for enemies of their state and they will probably find them. Let's not ignore the fact that heroes and patriot's often start out as an "enemy".

Sarah Winchester believed she was haunted by the men, women, and children killed by her husband's invention. What will keep us up at night in the future?

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