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Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

arstechnica.com

141–150 of 213 posts

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not talking about modifying the self-driving algorithms. I assume those are a totally closed black box. We're merely talking about inputting destination addresses. What Tesla is saying with this no-Uber rule is, "This is where you can and cannot go." What happens when they, say, strike a deal with McDonald's and ban drivers from going to Burger King locations? It sounds far-fetched, but I don't see any differen…

But even just inputting destination addresses has its problems. What happens when an Uber-like app freaks out and spams the self-driving algos with a hundred destinations a second? Or screws up the location and sends a passenger a dozen miles from their intended destination? Or where the Tesla algos find a route it's been given to be undriveable and just turn back? Sure, you and I would rightly hold the modder accoun…

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Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support Tesla restricting the benefits to their own ridesharing network. Why should Uber or Lyft profit by putting Tesla software into service? I don't just mind, I fully support it, and depending on the breakeven point, I'll buy several Teslas and put them in service as long as there's just a tiny bit of profit after Tesla's cut.

Software that vehicle purchasers have licensed for use in a vehicle that they ostensibly own. This is just the Apple iOS walled garden again. "If you want to make money using our car, we get a cut".

A license you agreed to at purchase. Don't like it, don't buy it.

And I like my iPhone walled garden just fine.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#143
post #121
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is already solved, and it's called copyright: if you're not the copyright holder, you are not allowed to sell/rent other copies of the software. What you do with the copy you originally obtained, is (should be) covered by the first sale doctrine.

What about updates? Are manufactures obligated to provide: security patches? mainline updates? feature additions? source and build ability for self/after-market changes? Warranties on physical goods have a long history (in the US) of being void if the owner makes certain changes. Should that apply to software? (great comment btw)

Normal updates (e.g. timezone rule changes, updated maps, security fixes) should be covered under warranty service, and should (imnsho) always be at the owner's discretion (even if it's a simple checkbox "yes, install updates without asking"). Additional features could be treated as an up-selling opportunity for existing customers, or could be provided for free to create brand loyalty. A critical bugfix should be treated as a product recall/replacement and communicated as such, not pushed silently: I really do not want the software attitude of "let's ship it broken, we can always patch it later if customers complain" to trickle over into other product areas.

(Yes, I'm aware that part of the above means that software engineering needs to grow up and become a real engineering discipline. I'm OK with that, in fact I think it's overdue.)

Warranties on physical goods have a long history (in the US) of being void if the owner makes certain changes. Should that apply to software?

I'm struggling to think of an example where this doesn't apply already. Can you give an example where a software company has honoured a warranty request even with custom modification? Or even where a warranty request for a pure software product was honoured? Even Firefox, a good example of a software product that thrives on third-party modifications, requests that you try to reproduce bugs in safe mode, with all add-ons disabled, and they give no guarantees about following up on your report.

The only example I can think of right now is Microsoft's support strategy: they will bill you for the support request unless you can successfully convince them that it's a genuine bug in their software. But I don't think MS support tickets are an example of product warranty, since it's provided as an additional service anyway.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But saying "Okay, but we're not responsible for damages" will not fly with regulators, legislators, public opinion or the integrity of their brand. Why not? It's how everything else works. If you buy a house and then install your own electrical wiring which causes your house to burn down, you have no claim against the construction company and nobody blames them for it because it was your fault, not theirs. This rec…

> Why not? It's how everything else works. If you buy a house and then install your own electrical wiring which causes your house to burn down, you have no claim against the construction company and nobody blames them for it because it was your fault, not theirs. This recent attitude of "people won't understand, therefore corporations have to be paternalistic" is patronizing and factually incorrect. People do actuall…

AnthonyMouse, I can't seem to reply to your comment directly, so I'll have to comment to mine.

>They don't have to be, for the same reason that you don't have to understand Maxwell's equations to understand that it's possible to cause a fire with bad wiring. The concept of "the user modifications caused the problem" is not beyond the public understanding. Anyone who cares about more details than that can take the time to understand them but those are not the people you have to worry about.

You try convincing the public of that. Every time a Tesla has caught on fire, it's been reported on in numerous news outlets. Despite the fact that thousands of gasoline cars catch on fire every year, people are worried about much rarer, milder lithium-ion battery fires. It's a new thing, so it gets way more scrutiny. People aren't always reasonable, and regulations are often made based on perceptions of danger, not actual risks. I think Tesla is not being unreasonable in thinking that "well, it's the owner's fault for messing with it!" is going to come off as anything but mealy-mouthed blame deflection. Even if they're in the right.

>Your arguments either apply or they don't. Their competitors are not in a different situation. They'll all make the same choice.

So whatever choice Tesla makes, all their competitors will also make? Or, in the case of Uber's in-development car, probably already have made? I think you're according them more influence than they really have. The point stands that whatever Tesla's choice on this matter, it does not apply a legal obligation on their competitors to do the same. So it is not "no improvement".

>That's the point. You don't want a black box in control of life or death situations. You want something the user can understand when they're capable of it, so that the 2% of users who are can identify and fix problems that will affect the other 98% before it turns into deaths and liability. Opening up the car could reduce their liability, because it gives them somewhere else to point the finger sometimes, and a large population of people willing to find and fix problems. If they control the car entirely then all the liability is always on them and no one can help them when they make a mistake.

But that's the thing - they don't want to be pointing the finger anywhere because that's almost always bad press for them. Throwing blame just looks bad. While helpful users are certainly an asset, it's mostly as a resource for identifying problems, not attempting to solve them on their own cars. Trying to aggregate, understand, vet, and integrate users' solutions is a huge and difficult undertaking, and not something that I think they want to attempt while trying to roll out a reasonably consistent product.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#145
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it does mean that. I can't deny it. But there's no law of physics stating that grandparents are necessarily wrong about everything. I think there's a strong argument to be made that the world really is better when consumers own instead of rent.

I just don't see how this is not ownership. You aren't renting, you're paying a standard purchase price for a good which has some restrictions on its use. Do you think that Tesla should have to make sure that its self-driving software is compatible with every ridesharing app that any random person comes up with? How will that work with liability if somebody sends their self-driving Tesla out to work under a rideshari…

> I just don't see how this is not ownership [...] you're paying a standard purchase price for a good which has some restrictions on its use.

You described exactly the problem people have with this idea :)

> Do you think that Tesla should have to make sure that its self-driving software is compatible with every ridesharing app that any random person comes up with? How will that work with liability if somebody sends their self-driving Tesla out to work under a ridesharing app that feeds bad inputs to it?

Then they should prohibit interfacing the car with 3rd party software quoting relevant regulations (or at least a generic "for safety reasons"), not put a blanket ban on commercial use of the self-driving functionality.

For now it seems that they don't even want me to physically sit there in the driver's seat and do something else while the car is driving, which puts your whole speculation about Tesla's motives into question.

And BTW, what if somebody breaks this rule and hacks his car into an autonomous Uber slave? By your logic, if something bad happens Tesla will still get blamed. All they accomplished is CYA and for that a warning about dangers of interfacing with unauthorized software would be sufficient. Even better in fact, because not all unauthorized software must be commercial.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#146

The erosion of the concept of "ownership" continues. Traditionally, goods are subject to the first sale doctrine--once I buy a shirt, it's my property, and if I want to sell or rent it, I can. It's mine. But software is licensed. When I buy a piece of software, I'm actually paying for a limited and revokable right to use someone else's property. And now companies are putting software into more and more goods. As soft…

Customercomrad, do not question the wisdom behind cooperate control of your goods and planned obsolescence. They are more and they get your workforces worth, thus they must deliver good results. The market can not fail, and if it does, it is your weak will to not decide for another product, that created this fail.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#147
So are these terms subject to change without notice? What will I be prevented from doing or where will I be prevented from going in my Tesla next? What if Tesla says I can't sleep in my car. Or I can't go visit other car dealerships? I love self driving cars, but I'm sure other competitors will have models that I can actually own. I am not interested in giving up my right to own a car just to have a car that can drive itself. Hell, can I even sell one of these used or are we just transferring software licenses now? In lieu of that, if this is just a glorified lease/rental, then I would expect Tesla to pay for 100% of the maintenance for the life of the car. That's clearly not happening. My opinion of Tesla and Musk has dropped considerably. This isn't revolutionary. It's not even desirable for consumers.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#149
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't see how this is not ownership. You aren't renting, you're paying a standard purchase price for a good which has some restrictions on its use. Do you think that Tesla should have to make sure that its self-driving software is compatible with every ridesharing app that any random person comes up with? How will that work with liability if somebody sends their self-driving Tesla out to work under a rideshari…

> I just don't see how this is not ownership [...] you're paying a standard purchase price for a good which has some restrictions on its use . You described exactly the problem people have with this idea :) > Do you think that Tesla should have to make sure that its self-driving software is compatible with every ridesharing app that any random person comes up with? How will that work with liability if somebody sends…

I felt that their aim in excluding third party software was reasonably clear when they noted that Tesla Network would be handling self-driving for revenue. If they really mean no self-driving for cash payment, not affecting the car otherwise, I am less enthused about that, but I maintain that they can write this into the use of the software if they ensure that people are adequately informed.

There are frequently limits put on use by sellers even when things are sold outright. You can purchase prescription drugs, but you can't just give them to anyone, or resell them without limits. You can often get software licenses for educational purposes that are not to be used for business. You may not like such restrictions, and certainly I don't think they should be made mandatory for everybody by law, but I don't think making it illegal for a company to make such rules is a very good idea. The easiest solution is simply to not purchase the offending product.

Edit: as regards the commercal/non-commercial mods, I think it's reasonable to imagine that they are trying to avoid the commercial insurance snafus that have entangled ride-sharing apps. When you accept money for a service you put yourself into a bunch of liability positions. And in this case, the liability is on the creator of the self-driving program.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#150
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it does mean that. I can't deny it. But there's no law of physics stating that grandparents are necessarily wrong about everything. I think there's a strong argument to be made that the world really is better when consumers own instead of rent.

I just don't see how this is not ownership. You aren't renting, you're paying a standard purchase price for a good which has some restrictions on its use. Do you think that Tesla should have to make sure that its self-driving software is compatible with every ridesharing app that any random person comes up with? How will that work with liability if somebody sends their self-driving Tesla out to work under a rideshari…

That concept of some restrictions has a specialized word for it - government.
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