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What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

politico.com

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Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#131

Post by Spooky23 »

azemetre wrote: post #45
gunnihinn wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As one anecdote, the paper ran an advertising campaign telling people not to use the website on Sundays. ... but why? What did they hope to achieve by that?

I don't know for sure, but Sunday newspapers are typically filled with ads and coupons for local businesses. It's probably the day that is most profitable for newspaper and ad sales together. Why they choose Sunday to stack in ads and coupons, I don't know. Might be related to Church services, I wonder if it's the same for newspapers in other countries?

Traditionally people didn't work on Sunday and would do the shopping.

Thursday is the other big day, especially for car ads.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#132

Post by orbitingpluto »

nathanaldensr wrote: post #88
orbitingpluto wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your comment is very apt. If you don't pay for the news, you being manipulated is the product. You have to support people who inform for our actual benefit. I subscribe to a couple digital periodicals. My last paper subscription lapsed about four months ago.

This is a false dichotomy. Please present evidence that shows that paying for news means you are not being manipulated. I counter your lack of evidence with an opinion that states the opposite: News being written by people, almost all news has some form of bias. Sometimes it's barely there, sometimes it's in-your-face.

Spurting out 'false dichotomy' and stating that I haven't provided the necessary treatise of evidence is kind of ridiculous. I hope you can see how pretentious that sounds.

If a news organization only exists because the Koch brothers own it and it operates at a loss, its primary purpose isn't to serve unbiased news, but propaganda.

Contrast that to a news agency or journalist whose existence is funded only through subscriptions, with zero advertising. These type of agencies are not subservient to a Murdoch, a pharma company, or anybody. They only have to interest their readership sufficiently.

Of course there is still bias. But now you have multiple viewpoints. If the only news you're getting is from papers owned by billionaires or heavily moderated forums owned by billionaires, then good luck.

I would agree with you that sending money to Fox News isn't going to help with the bias much.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#133

Post by orbitingpluto »

mark-r wrote: post #66
orbitingpluto wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your comment is very apt. If you don't pay for the news, you being manipulated is the product. You have to support people who inform for our actual benefit. I subscribe to a couple digital periodicals. My last paper subscription lapsed about four months ago.

Paying doesn't help. It always galled me that I was paying for the privilege of getting ads. My paper subscription lapsed years ago. The local paper is actually pretty good, but I find I don't miss it much anymore.

Perhaps you should find some news sites that don't have ads then? Something that only exists on readership support? Some stories only eventually break into 'mainstream media' (ugh, I used that phrase, I'm sorry) through these sites.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#134

Post by cma »

return0 wrote: post #99
ghaff wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with the parent about journalists (or that software developers should be licensed in general). But I would point out that, especially for engineers involved in signing off on certain things from a regulatory perspective, there is a Professional Engineer license that's required for certain jobs. I took and passed an Engineer-in-Training exam at one point because had I continued in my then job path I'd ha…

Add to that , journalists may get fired but dont go to jail for spreading lies.

There is a law on the books for that, though I don't know of any journalists who have been prosecuted:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#135

Post by yk »

betenoire wrote: post #79
nkozyra wrote: post #10

The conclusion that a drop in readership is proof that moving to the web was a mistake is extraordinarily shallow. "Readers continue to leave print newspapers, but they’re not migrating to the online editions." Because they have more options. Print products were often monopolies, especially in the early to mid 90s, a hey day for newspapers. There was often a single publication per DMA. What happened then is newspaper…

My plumber isn't allowed to call himself a plumber unless he follows the rules for plumbing. Same for my accountant, doctor, electrician, and lock pick. I get the "free speech" argument, but I still cannot understand why we don't have rules about who can and cannot call themselves a journalist. Coming up with these rules might be tricky, but shouldn't we try? Or have we and I'm just uninformed?

That would not really help, since at the high end of information newspapers die by a thousand cuts. A journalist simply can not compete with Schneier's or DJB's blog on cryptography, he can not compete with Carrol on theoretical physics etc. So it is not only that newspapers do not have a good business model for the internet, it is also that the internet gives you better alternatives for those topics you are actually interested in.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#136

Post by rhizome »

betenoire wrote: post #120
jdietrich wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you draw the line on what constitutes journalism? Are politics bloggers journalists? Are bloggers who occasionally talk about politics journalists? Are people who livetweet a news event that they're involved in acting as journalists? How do you safeguard the political independence of the licensing of journalists? How do you ensure that a future government doesn't abuse the licensing regulations to suppress p…

good questions. I think the methods applied are what needs accredited, not the results themselves. If an organization calls itself news or whatever nomenclature we agree to, they are claiming to follow accredited guidelines that we collectively trust. At the end of the day, it comes down to heuristics around trust. It's not the message I want to validate, it's the means of preparation that bother me more. I can draw…

What is it about journalism that requires standards like plumbers, doctors, and accountants? More to the point, if you look at the reasons why plumbers, doctors, and locksmiths are held to standards, which ones apply to journalism?

Note also that journalism is the only one of your mentioned professions that is specifically called out for protection in the Constitution.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#137

Post by rhizome »

pyre wrote: post #116
jdietrich wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you draw the line on what constitutes journalism? Are politics bloggers journalists? Are bloggers who occasionally talk about politics journalists? Are people who livetweet a news event that they're involved in acting as journalists? How do you safeguard the political independence of the licensing of journalists? How do you ensure that a future government doesn't abuse the licensing regulations to suppress p…

> If the only restriction is on the title 'journalist', what stops people from calling themselves a blogger while doing exactly the same things that a journalist does? I don't think that anyone would be proposing restricting speech in this way, but on the same note, papers such as Weekly World News maybe couldn't pump out more stories about Bat Boy while attempting to call themselves journalists...

Do WWN writers call themselves journalists? There's something to be said for what readers call journalism. It isn't the same for everybody. So, is it the journalist's responsibility to hold to a standard, or is it the audience's fault for thinking that a particular writer is a journalist?

This raises the question: can the term "journalist" even be controlled?

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#138

Post by ChoHag »

1812calif wrote: post #108
betenoire wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My plumber isn't allowed to call himself a plumber unless he follows the rules for plumbing. Same for my accountant, doctor, electrician, and lock pick. I get the "free speech" argument, but I still cannot understand why we don't have rules about who can and cannot call themselves a journalist. Coming up with these rules might be tricky, but shouldn't we try? Or have we and I'm just uninformed?

Because once your government is the arbiter of "journalism", anyone who disagrees will be marginalized? Even the threat of it can affect what is / is not covered. Once the government has significant power over journalism, you end up with Russian state sponsored journalism. It's not perfect over here, and needs much improvement. Access is contingent on certain rules. It can get much worse.

Because once your government is the arbiter of "plumbing", anyone who can squeeze a pipe together but doesn't need to qualify to work with gas will be marginalised (and unemployed)?

Because once your government is the arbiter of "electrician", anyone who thinks the rules are ridiculous (they are frequently way over the top) will be marginalised (and unemployed)?

Because once your government is the arbiter of "programmer", anyone who can hack a few lines together but is only 12 and not permitted to license will be marginalised (and uneducated)?

It is getting much worse. Not only is little freedom left but it's been taken away under the guise of the exact opposite, and the façade is widely, and often violently, believed.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#139

Post by coriander2 »

I always thought one way to break this problem was to socialize newspaper and media profits into a pool.

Assuming you could actually track levels of readership without gaming in the network -- and I concede that's a big if, then in theory you could create a public-broadcasting like arrangement where private actors receive public funds in proportion to their popularity.

I would personally love to pay a tax to help independent media thrive if I new it could support those who do the best at gaining eyeballs.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#140

Post by carlmungz »

tomcam wrote: post #100
carlmungz wrote: post #46

As an-ex journalist who recently left the industry to become a programmer, I'd say one of the issues is the short-sightedness of senior management. When I started teaching myself to code last year, I told my editor as well as a couple of other senior staff members (including the chief exec) about my ambitions to combine coding and journalism. My editor was all for it but there was little she could do besides telling…

A fascinating story, and I hope you have a blog somewhere. Please post its URL if you do. As an aside you mentioned that you hoped a boss would recognize what you were doing and take an active interest in it. One thing I learned too late in my professional life is that you must actively sell yourself. People have so many things to do these days that even a good boss may not notice you. Have you noticed how there are…

Funnily enough, I'm not much of a blogger. I enjoy writing but am not the stage were I want to blog. My coding journey so far definitely taught me a lot about self-starting and selling yourself. I did not stay and try to sell myself because I was not enjoying the working conditions. We were expected to do more with fewer resources and the only reason we produced a good product is because we went beyond what the job description stipulated. What kind of company do you run? I'd like to start something in the future so I'm learning as much as I can about everything now.
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