What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? • Hacker News Board

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#111

Post by matt4077 » Wed, Oct 19, 2016, 2:03 AM UTC

It appears unlikely that, as the general consensus seems to be, a group as diverse as all journalists world-wide would collectively be any more stupid than any other profession. So it may be unjust to call what happened to them "mistakes". There's no indication that an offline-only or paywalled distribution would have had better chances (the few that did were without exception rather special publications focusing on high-value niches).

They were simply mauled by the same market forces that killed travel agencies or fax repairmen.

Unfortunately, while we're all quite happy to book our own flights, journalism is still vital. Sure, news is cheap, you can get the same stuff everywhere. But if you trace it back to it's origin, you'll end up at the NYT or WP or the Guardian more often than not.

There's simply no way that hobbyists could ever fill the void that would remain if any of the few high-quality publications were to fail.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#112

Post by Tyr42 » Wed, Oct 19, 2016, 2:07 AM UTC

trentmb wrote: post #89

flukus wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but change journalist to "software developer" and see what kind of reaction you get around here.

> I agree, but change journalist to "software developer Even better- "software engineer"

Hey, it is a protected term in Canada.

Don't got your iron ring? Not an Engineer.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#113

Post by ams6110 » Wed, Oct 19, 2016, 2:07 AM UTC

specialist wrote: post #109

betenoire wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My plumber isn't allowed to call himself a plumber unless he follows the rules for plumbing. Same for my accountant, doctor, electrician, and lock pick. I get the "free speech" argument, but I still cannot understand why we don't have rules about who can and cannot call themselves a journalist. Coming up with these rules might be tricky, but shouldn't we try? Or have we and I'm just uninformed?

Journalists attempt to tell the truth, gets second sources, endures fact checking, and correct any mistakes made. Pundits are just loud mouths. Truthiness is irrelevant. Propagandists knowingly lie, distort, omit, whatever.

Journalists also focus on facts - who, what, when - and avoid bias. Something that we've seen has gone out the window at what used to be legitimate news sources.

I have no problem with opinion pieces or punditry, but don't try to disguise it as journalism.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#114

Post by matt4077 » Wed, Oct 19, 2016, 2:13 AM UTC

yourapostasy wrote: post #44

Some of the more dynamic content from the NYT is coming the closest to what I would want to pay a subscription for, but still far from my threshold to pay. Static word content that we once paid handsomely for (in terms of ad space and subscription fees) is regurgitated at far lower cost everywhere now. But I've yet to see widespread adoption of content with active models to work with, even download and run for yourse…

Well they're doing quite a lot in data-journalism. The Upshot (NYT) and 538 have git organizations. Others are trying the "timeless" content you're describing – I'd say Vox's "cards" come close (but are horribly boring tbh)

Problem is – besides politics not always being easy to capture numerically – that the economics of such a model probably wouldn't work. It'd probably increase costs by factor of at least 5, and I strongly doubt that the market could support it.

It's a tragedy-of-the-commons situation. I currently don't pay for any subscriptions, even though I've avoided the cynicism and the conspiracy theories frequently invoked against journalists. I think they're excellent – so much so in fact that can't imagine getting tied to any single publication.

But, if nobody buys them anymore, we'll get to see what it's like without newspapers. I fear many people don't realize how much of what's going on originates with a handful of organizations. Unfortunately, just as power isn't created in the plug, no news are created on twitter (well, nowadays some are, but you get my point).

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#115

Post by matt4077 » Wed, Oct 19, 2016, 2:18 AM UTC

programminggeek wrote: post #61

I think the problem is a simple assumption - people will leave the print version of My Local Journal and go to mylocaljournal.com when in fact they go from My Local Journal to Buzzfeed or the Yahoo! homepage or Google News or Twitter or Facebook or RSS of their 10 favorite blogs etc... For example, I don't have a newspaper. I also don't check the local newspaper website. My wife, friends, relatives don't seem to eith…

The problem with that is that well-informed citizen are necessary for the functioning of a democracy. You can't make decisions without information.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#116

Post by pyre » Wed, Oct 19, 2016, 2:33 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #95

betenoire wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My plumber isn't allowed to call himself a plumber unless he follows the rules for plumbing. Same for my accountant, doctor, electrician, and lock pick. I get the "free speech" argument, but I still cannot understand why we don't have rules about who can and cannot call themselves a journalist. Coming up with these rules might be tricky, but shouldn't we try? Or have we and I'm just uninformed?

Where do you draw the line on what constitutes journalism? Are politics bloggers journalists? Are bloggers who occasionally talk about politics journalists? Are people who livetweet a news event that they're involved in acting as journalists? How do you safeguard the political independence of the licensing of journalists? How do you ensure that a future government doesn't abuse the licensing regulations to suppress p…

> If the only restriction is on the title 'journalist', what stops people from calling themselves a blogger while doing exactly the same things that a journalist does?

I don't think that anyone would be proposing restricting speech in this way, but on the same note, papers such as Weekly World News maybe couldn't pump out more stories about Bat Boy while attempting to call themselves journalists...

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#117

Post by tcbawo » Wed, Oct 19, 2016, 2:44 AM UTC

Fricken wrote: post #29

goatlover wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sacrificing the ideals of journalism sounds like a bad deal for democracy. But then again, if people would rather be entertained by whatever is in their filter bubble for five minutes, than be challenged, I guess that's the kind of news world we get.

I remember my print edition, it was mostly schlock, but every now and then they would do some real investigative local reporting, and that was invaluable. No local source has broken a major, deep, sprawling complex story in years, they're basically just bloggers now, they've got a handful of daily beats they cover, and they don't go much deeper than that. Powerful local organizations operate unchecked.

I've noticed neighborhood groups on Facebook starting to fill this vacuum. It would be interesting if online journalism could embrace the model of geographic news.

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#118

Post by TW80000 » Wed, Oct 19, 2016, 2:48 AM UTC

Tyr42 wrote: post #112

trentmb wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I agree, but change journalist to "software developer Even better- "software engineer"

Hey, it is a protected term in Canada. Don't got your iron ring? Not an Engineer.

I've read that this is only true for the term "Professional Engineer." Do you know of a source that backs up your claim?

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#119

Post by InYan » Wed, Oct 19, 2016, 2:54 AM UTC

huherto wrote: post #67

Netflix for newspapers. If you could pay a small monthly fee and be able to read from a collection of newspapers.

I am sure that such service already exists. I can also offer Uber for editors, Airbnb for printing houses or Spotify for journalists :wink:

Re: What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake?

#120

Post by betenoire » Wed, Oct 19, 2016, 2:59 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #95

betenoire wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My plumber isn't allowed to call himself a plumber unless he follows the rules for plumbing. Same for my accountant, doctor, electrician, and lock pick. I get the "free speech" argument, but I still cannot understand why we don't have rules about who can and cannot call themselves a journalist. Coming up with these rules might be tricky, but shouldn't we try? Or have we and I'm just uninformed?

Where do you draw the line on what constitutes journalism? Are politics bloggers journalists? Are bloggers who occasionally talk about politics journalists? Are people who livetweet a news event that they're involved in acting as journalists? How do you safeguard the political independence of the licensing of journalists? How do you ensure that a future government doesn't abuse the licensing regulations to suppress p…

good questions.

I think the methods applied are what needs accredited, not the results themselves. If an organization calls itself news or whatever nomenclature we agree to, they are claiming to follow accredited guidelines that we collectively trust.

At the end of the day, it comes down to heuristics around trust. It's not the message I want to validate, it's the means of preparation that bother me more. I can draw my own conclusions if I can trust the method.

Looking at it this way, would that resolve some of your concerns? Open auditing and accrediting do not need to involve censorship at all. You never lose the ability to say what you want, just to call yourself a "certified whatever". I dunno.