Shame on Y Combinator • Hacker News Board

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#651

Post by feklar » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 5:03 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #348

tptacek wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you do not believe that Trump is an existential threat to American democracy, then, while I implore you to reconsider, I am content to agree to disagree. But you might take that disagreement up first with Paul Graham and Sam Altman. They do not agree with you. They aggressively don't agree with you. They compare Donald Trump with a fascist dictator. I think they're right about Trump, and therefore that they're ver…

>They compare Donald Trump with a fascist dictator. A bit childish, considering the slot the candidate is running for is not in a dictatorship. If you think Trump could convert the US to a dictatorship, I would like to see the evidence supporting this.

Also odd considering Trump spent the entire nomination campaign shilling his deal making abilities, and how he would lead by consensus instead of executive orders.

I don't see how YC denying Peter Thiel is anything more than political theatre it has no bearing on whether Trump will win or not.

All these distractions when the US has two states CT and IL in near bankruptcy due to pensions being 200%+ over state revenues, and a frightening national debt meaning Feds will likely not be able to bail them out. Wish everybody could panic over that not Thiel being involved with YC.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#652

Post by rtx » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #230

_hao wrote: post #118

You Americans (at least I think the majority of you are Americans) are getting quite ridiculous arguing over this. Supporting a political candidate is a personal choice, one that is given to every eligible individual in a democratic state. Calling for someone to be fired or sever ties with them over political choice is retarded and counter-productive.

Adult life is full of personal choices that adults are required to be accountable for.

Would you like to be held accountable for Aylan Kurdi

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#653

Post by nickpsecurity » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 5:06 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #127

Marcos understanding of this situation is extremely telling for a fundamental problem with many americans relationship with politics. Most only get involved around election. After that their political interest is non existing. It's easy to get lured into the idea that politics is a simple choice between the moral good and the moral bad, that the choice is simple and that there is a one to one relationship between wha…

To support your position it's more complex than it appears I'm going to repost this article that correctly describes many issues leading to Trump support:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-on...

It's from an entertainment site but many claims in here are exactly what rural people tell me in person in 3 states plus online in a few more. That Duck Dynasty treated and portrayed them positively is why that show exploded in popularity to great confusion of many liberals. Trump is tapping into concerns of half the country that doesn't exist or is "a bunch of fucktards" in the minds of many (most?) city-dwelling and liberal Americans. I actually took time to listen to them to find many of their positions make more sense when you actually understand their lifestyle, businesses, upbringing, etc. My agreement was a mix with mostly disagreement but I saw where they're coming from. Shit like Trump's rise doesn't happen in a vacuum.

The sooner liberals and Silicon Valley start understanding rural America the better. They'll be able to target them with better political candidates, businesses, etc. There might also be increased cooperation instead of fighting. We might get more Trumps in the future if the disconnect remains and continues to increase.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#654

Post by welanes » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #479

genericpseudo wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the end consequence of tremendous cowardice from a lot of people over a long time, starting with the owners and administrators of Hacker News. HN has – through inaction – smirkingly enabled alt-right/NRx/GamerGaters to parody-thru-libel liberal positions on equality for a long time; supporting Peter Thiel is in the same vein. That's made Hacker News racist, sexist, and (worst of all for this crowd's self-imag…

I am as troubled as you are about the uptick in overt racism and sexism on HN. But I know and trust the moderators of the site, and this is a conversation I have had with them too, and I don't have any better ideas on how to deal with it than they do. The bigger problem is that the (very large) community of reasonable nerds who care about bigotry has largely abandoned Hacker News. In doing so, they've conceded it to…

I've noticed this too. Not only on HN, but below the line on many publications - The Economist, Politico, even at The Guardian, long a liberal bastion.

I don't think the reason is that 'reasonable' people have jumped ship though. At least that's not the sole reason. It seems recent events have turned some of those reasonable people reactionary. They've watched an increase of censorship and dishonesty under the guise of progressivism and decided that sunlight is the best disinfectant (just take a look at the shrieks of conspiracy whenever a frontpage post is flagged).

In doing so they have paved the way for an increase in bigotry from those who now believe that the lid has blown off once-taboo topics.

Perhaps I'm wrong but sorting comments by 'popular' on any of the sites mentioned above suggests that this isn't a phenomenon unique to HN. It's a shift in our online discourse.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#655

Post by psyc » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

AKrumbach wrote: post #618

MattBearman wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its quite possible OP doesn't believe anything in the linked to article By OP I assume you mean me, ie: the guy who submitted the article to HN, not the author. First, I'm not out for attention, but thanks for that unprompted attack (dick). I submitted this as it seemed wrong that it kept being censored/flagged off HN. Honestly I expected it to be flagged off again, but hoped at least a few more people would get to s…

> Sam Altman and PG have both been very vocal in their denouncement of Trump, so keeping Thiel as a partner seems incongruous at best, and down right spineless at worst. You may have to clarify this for me, because it sounds as if you believe people with different political ideals can never work together, even on something non-political.

It seems the exact opposite to me. Spineless would be cutting ties with Thiel, even though it's against their principles to do so over political affiliation, just because some people who get hysterical over politics want them to.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#656

Post by Chris2048 » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #450

Chris2048 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it plays too much into the hands of those who are glad to jump on the "silencing opposing views" bandwagon Why frame it like this? It is "silencing opposing views", whether a bandwagon exists or not, so is bad in itself. You seem to imply the only problem is that people care about the issue - that's a good thing! > in SV, where various racist and misogynistic ideas SV is a liberal and leftist hotspot, so those idea…

> It is "silencing opposing views" Well, I'm not 100% sure that telling your billionaire buddy that since he's become a politician in a movement that you view as dangerous to your country and its people perhaps you shouldn't do business together for a while, qualifies as silencing his views. Still, I don't think it was right to demand this of YC. > Are you pondering why any non-liberal ideas sometimes take hold there…

He hasn't "become a politician", it isn't proposed "for a while".

> I'm not wondering why supremacist views sometimes takes hold

We were talking about "various racist and misogynistic ideas", not "supremacist views". Are you talking about any view you see as subjectively racist/misogynist, or only specific ones?

> Marie Antoinette's mistake wasn't not working in the interest of her people

Antoinette's famous comment was glib and not intended to help, versus PGs sincere willingness to discuss sex issues; Also, she was a monarch is a brutal reign, if you want to compare than to the SV tech industry, go ahead.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#657

Post by malchow » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 5:09 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #643

thisisdallas wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess the fact that he's a billionaire means he can be bullied No, the fact that he is supporting a republican means he can be bullied. The tolerant left is on some radical moralistic high ground right now and it's far more dangerous than any words Trump has said. When the campaign of a presidential nominee (Hillary) is recruiting the homeless and mentally ill to cause violence at Trump rallies, simply condemning…

> When the campaign of a presidential nominee (Hillary) is recruiting the homeless and mentally ill to cause violence at Trump rallies Citation very VERY needed. James O'Keefe is not an acceptable - that is, truthful - source. [1] > The tolerant left is on some radical moralistic high ground right now and it's far more dangerous than any words Trump has said. You need to unpack this. I don't understand how any ideolo…

The O'Keefe video[1] shows extended primary source material of named Democratic operatives bragging about recruiting the homeless to deliberately cause violence at conservative events, including providing scripted words.

You may not like the editing, and there could be material edited out that redeem the Clinton operatives 1-5%. But not much. At least by my lights, the evidence is quite damning.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#658

Post by edanm » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 5:09 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #558

edanm wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sam Altman cannot coherently believe this while supporting Peter Thiel [,...]" Why not? This is the only part of your comment I have a problem with. People can coherently have two values that they care about, and have to weigh one against the other. It is totally legitimate to think that Trump is a threat to democracy, to completely oppose Thiel, but to also think that firing someone for their political beliefs is a…

The problem with this logic is that you're multiplying a very low probability against a truly catastrophic outcome. The expected value result of that calculation is still very, very bad. But I also disagree about Trump's prospects. As I wrote elsewhere on the thread: I think we underestimate the likelihood that Trump will win, and further I think we're going to be in exactly the same struggle in just 3 more years, wh…

I tend to agree, but it certainly seems like Sam Altman and Paul Graham don't. I'm reasonably confident that they would do more if they thought Trump being elected was more likely.

Also, you paint a terrifying picture of what happens next - as you (IMO correctly) point out, Trump will not just disappear, but will probably be setting up the next election. Which isn't even the worst case - the worst case is a serious and ongoing Trump challenge to Clinton's election.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#659

Post by jshevek » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

bobjordan wrote: post #9

Conservatives have a right to their own set of values, like anti-abortion, faith-based education issues, smaller government, reduced taxes, etc., and they have a right to back whatever candidate aligns with their values. I'm a liberal but it is amazing to me to read these types of articles, from other liberals with zero tolerance for the alternative viewpoint. There should not even be a decision to be made here. It t…

Thank you for posting this. I'm also a liberal, but when such politically divergent people as Ralph Nader and Rush Limbaugh are (shockingly) speaking out against the same kinds of social disease, it's time to take notice. Something has gone very wrong on the left.

Re: Shame on Y Combinator

#660

Post by inimino » Tue, Oct 18, 2016, 5:10 PM UTC

idlewords wrote: post #646

webXL wrote: post #595

Shame on Marco. I can't stand Trump, but I also can't stand this ganging up on Thiel. I guess the fact that he's a billionaire means he can be bullied, but this political bullying has a chilling effect that leads to the lackluster choices we get for president every four years. Thiel sees Hillary as a bigger threat to his interests than Trump. To prefer an outcome does not imply you favor all aspects of that outcome.…

Bullying implies a power relationship where Thiel is weak, and strong people are ganging up on him. But Thiel is a powerful man. This is just debate. Huge, internet-clogging amounts of debate.

People are calling for the severing of working relationships based on the guy's politics, which is perhaps not a textbook definition of bullying but more than just debate.

Sadly the concept of civil debate seems to have been lost somewhere along the way.