Does anyone have link to original sources? Most houses in EU already have "charging point", it is called electric plug. 25A/380V plugs are pretty common: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_and_multiphase_powe... But electric grids in western countries (Germany, UK) are absolutely not ready for such thing. German power grid would collapse if Czechia and Poland started enforcing their safety regulations. This reg…
Plans for an electric car charging point in every new home in Europe
21–30 of 46 posts
Re: Plans for an electric car charging point in every new home in Europe
#22Hmmm. It's not like installing the charging points later is terribly difficult or expensive compared to the cost of the cars themselves, so long as there's a suitable garage or parking space. Are they outlawing new homes and home refurbishments without garages or similar suitable for electric cars? That'd be quite some subsidy for the car industry.
Re: Plans for an electric car charging point in every new home in Europe
#23Hmmm. It's not like installing the charging points later is terribly difficult or expensive compared to the cost of the cars themselves, so long as there's a suitable garage or parking space. Are they outlawing new homes and home refurbishments without garages or similar suitable for electric cars? That'd be quite some subsidy for the car industry.
To me, the reason to consider requiring a car charging station is not really related to cars but to the history of after the fact electrical installations which to be safe must be done right and doing it right takes time (to hire qualified installers) and money (to hire said installers and purchase electrical gear) and that human nature is to avoid those things and install systems that trade those costs for safety (fire and shock).
I look at it as parallel to requiring circuit breakers rather than fuses in new residential construction and renovation. Fuses are really safe, safer than circuit breakers in theory. In practice people substitute non-fusable objects for fuses for convenience and cost savings. The work until they don't.
Re: Plans for an electric car charging point in every new home in Europe
#24While this is a hell of a lot better than the current system of non-electric, I feel that people owning their own car won't be a thing after cars are self driving. After they are, I think people will just call for a car and it would drive to you and pick you up. Obviously this won't work for rural and off road areas, though.
> I feel that people owning their own car won't be a thing Why is this such a big fantasy among leftists?
Re: Plans for an electric car charging point in every new home in Europe
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I feel that people owning their own car won't be a thing Why is this such a big fantasy among leftists?
Even if you're not a leftist you can see there would be a much higher efficiency of people only having a car when needed. You only have to look at driveways and parking lots to see how inefficient car use is currently.
On top of that, for many, cars are an extension of their ego (vanity plates, custom wheels, extra lights, etc). I doubt people will want to give that up, if they can afford it.
And unless we are talking car sharing, I don't see the efficiency of car use go up. If you drive an hour to work, and somebody else wants to make a similar trip, chances are there will be two hours between those trips, as most people live and few people work in the suburbs. Also, a car making two trips into town each day will make at least 3 round trips, whereas now, two cars each make one.
Yes, there may be gains in building fewer 'second cars', and the number of accidents should go down, but total mileage won't go down, so wear and tear will not go down, so we still will have to build about the same number of cars.
Conclusion: much higher efficiency? I don't see that happen.
Re: Plans for an electric car charging point in every new home in Europe
#26Does anyone have link to original sources? Most houses in EU already have "charging point", it is called electric plug. 25A/380V plugs are pretty common: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_and_multiphase_powe... But electric grids in western countries (Germany, UK) are absolutely not ready for such thing. German power grid would collapse if Czechia and Poland started enforcing their safety regulations. This reg…
What makes you think the German grid would not be up to charging electrical cars? In most places it is in an excellent state and as electrical consumption overall is sinking (getting rid of incandescent bulbs and wasteful electric devices helped there). On average, an electrical car would need about 10kWh/day to recharge, based on the average mileage. This does not put high loads on the electrical networks, especiall…
- electricity is produced by wind farms in north, and transfered to industrial south. German grid does not have enough capacity and has to transfer through Czech grid. That is often pushing it to edge of safety limit. Safety breakers are not possible for political reasons (Poland installed something like that).
- Building new high-voltage power line is almost impossible
- Atomic plants are being decommissioned. There might be a problem to satisfy existing demand.
- Germany is planning to use Russian gas to make power in future (baltic pipe...). But Russia stated they might not have enough gas in 30 years to supply their own internal demand, and will stop exporting.
- More recently there is a huge political instability associated with Russian gas.
- Poland (or Estonia?) buys liquid gas from Katar and transports it on tankers. But that is very expensive
- Building new power plants in Germany is very problematic.
Re: Plans for an electric car charging point in every new home in Europe
#27Hmmm. It's not like installing the charging points later is terribly difficult or expensive compared to the cost of the cars themselves, so long as there's a suitable garage or parking space. Are they outlawing new homes and home refurbishments without garages or similar suitable for electric cars? That'd be quite some subsidy for the car industry.
Any jurisdiction that requires off street parking to be associated with buildings (which is nearly universal in the US) could be said to be similarly subsidizing the auto industry. To me, the reason to consider requiring a car charging station is not really related to cars but to the history of after the fact electrical installations which to be safe must be done right and doing it right takes time (to hire qualified…
>I look at it as parallel to requiring circuit breakers rather than fuses in new residential construction and renovation. Fuses are really safe, safer than circuit breakers in theory. In practice people substitute non-fusable objects for fuses for convenience and cost savings. The work until they don't.
I agree here. That said, in the US most homeowner electrical installations are done 90% to code and the stuff people skip is stuff like supporting wires individually and circuit planning often sucks.
In applications where you really care about not starting electrical fires there's usually a combination breaker and fuse where the breaker setting is conservative and the fuse is sized to burn up just before the wire does.
Re: Plans for an electric car charging point in every new home in Europe
#28While this is a hell of a lot better than the current system of non-electric, I feel that people owning their own car won't be a thing after cars are self driving. After they are, I think people will just call for a car and it would drive to you and pick you up. Obviously this won't work for rural and off road areas, though.
> I feel that people owning their own car won't be a thing Why is this such a big fantasy among leftists?
1) Left is culturally dominant (the establishment) at this time, therefore all social signalling (social media) is left wing and has a single progressive unified outlook on life. Even if "emperor has no clothes" style no one actually believes it. That has two effects. One is that someone started it so everyone has to parrot it as common sense and the only socially acceptable outlook because there must be only one correct answer to social questions. The other effect is due to only one outlook being acceptable, any random people MUST be compatible with any other random person. In the real world of course you can't just randomly shove ethnic, cultural, or religious groups that are unfriendly with each other into the same very close shared personal space. It would be badthink apostasy to think everyone in shared cabs will do anything other than hold hands and sing girl scout friendship songs. In the real world of course it would be hell.
2) There is a cultural superiority complex or rationalization or something that drives them as a group against scheduled activities. The famous "look at all those residential driveways full of cars" is a tired trope. Its a little short sighted in that 99.99% of my life I have not required the services of an ambulance therefore I don't want or need ambulance service in my community. The majority of the car buying public has an elementary school daughter who gets out of school at 3:40pm not "when she can get an uber" or "school children should be able to participate in contracts" or whatever. It doesn't matter if on a 24 hour average all the cars at school pickup are empty 95% of the time therefore we only need 5% the number of cars... doesn't work that way, we need 100% of the cars that are lined up at pickup time. Ditto 9-5 office salaryman work or sports teams or anything with a fixed schedule. Sharing only works if everyone in your culture never looks at a clock and just hops bars when they feel the need, not 9-5 at the ole salt mine. Living according to a clock is extremely right wing. Most phones spend most time in pockets therefore we should share phones. Most underwear spends most of its time in dresser drawers therefore we need an uber for underpants.
3) I believe there's some residual "workers of the world unite" and we shouldn't own property and maybe the state could own all the cars just like the state owns all the bus vehicles and passenger trains. How dare the proles have agency and have the capability to move without government cooperation and tracking, etc. Much like owning a gun is fundamentally immoral because we should trust Big Brother to protect us at all times and any implication Big Brother is not our friend is badthink of the highest order therefore gun ownership is badthink. I'm sure Big Brother's cars will only have our happiness as their sole priority, it would be wrongthink to consider otherwise.
4) There is a study I don't have a link to WRT disgust reflex along political spectra, to the extent that sitting next to a smelly creepy homeless guy is likely to make a right winger retch and get disgusted at the smell but a leftie is physically more likely to ignore it while celebrating the vibrant diversity of the situation. Its like how urban people literally don't mind crime as much as suburban or rural people, although there's self selection going on there.
5) There are known demographic issues WRT ownership of a childs car seat correlating with various political outlooks etc. Inherently there will be less interest by left wing people in car ownership.
Re: Plans for an electric car charging point in every new home in Europe
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even if you're not a leftist you can see there would be a much higher efficiency of people only having a car when needed. You only have to look at driveways and parking lots to see how inefficient car use is currently.
You only have to look inside those cars to see how that will not happen for those who can afford self-driving cars (most people, if the utopian predictions hold true). Most cars are extensions of one's home and are used to store all kinds of stuff (kid's seats, sunglasses, umbrellas, charging cables, tents in the back trunk, etc.) On top of that, for many, cars are an extension of their ego (vanity plates, custom whe…
If magic cars are more expensive they'll fail and people will buy regular cars. But if magic cars are cheaper then people will have more money to do stuff equals somewhat more traveling, AND traveling will be cheaper so they'll be more likely to do it. Why eat bologna sandwich at home with a car you own, if its cheaper to take the family out to eat steak at a county park a couple miles away in someone elses magic car? Hey I sold my personal car and use magic car now, so I've got money to pay for a dentist AND instead of staying home I will have magic car drive me to the dentist...
We might need less driveways but the road are going to get a lot more congested... Also we're going to burn a lot more gas and need more gas stations, more service stations, more car culture in general. Just not privately owned car culture.
Re: Plans for an electric car charging point in every new home in Europe
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
Any jurisdiction that requires off street parking to be associated with buildings (which is nearly universal in the US) could be said to be similarly subsidizing the auto industry. To me, the reason to consider requiring a car charging station is not really related to cars but to the history of after the fact electrical installations which to be safe must be done right and doing it right takes time (to hire qualified…
>To me, the reason to consider requiring a car charging station is not really related to cars but to the history of after the fact electrical installations which to be safe must be done right and doing it right takes time (to hire qualified installers) and money (to hire said installers and purchase electrical gear) and that human nature is to avoid those things and install systems that trade those costs for safety (…