Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued • Hacker News Board

Re: Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued

#31

Post by hga » Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 7:14 PM UTC

Freebytes wrote: post #13

cubicle67 wrote: post #2

how do you get a society where something like this is uncovered, and half of the comments are abusing the family that uncovered it? oh, and the past tense of shine is shone :)

There is a tendency in society for people to blame the victim. You hear about rape crimes, and people ask what the girl was wearing with the idea that somehow she was 'asking for it.' I try to view the situation from both sides as much as possible, but I do not advocate blaming the vicitim in most circumstances. In this particular case, it is stupid for the school system to even implement this policy in the first pla…

WRT 3: If you think about it, a system has to be in "phone home" mode when it leaves (the school LAN in this case) for an anti-theft system to work.

As I recall from my interpretation of what the school's sysadmin said (and perhaps others), when the system connects to the net and it's not the normal LAN, it automatically starts taking pictures and sending those, screen shots and the usual (IP address etc.) to the school's servers. But I may be wrong.

ADDED: But I'm pretty sure I'm right, these are Macs with their hardwired "camera on" lights. Which many students noticed blinking and were assured was merely a "glitch". At least according to many accounts ... I guess we'll find out in the upcoming trials.

"Activated" in that context is using the theft server software to look at that already stored info. The only question then would be if administrators also looked at the pictures in one way or another outside of the scope of a "stolen" or whatever laptop.

Whichever, it sounds like some of the were having a little too much fun spying on their charges. Which should have told them something....

WRT 1: There's the theory that laptop use in the classroom is good. I think this is bogus (it's been much discussed in general) but they were working on that theory. Laptops also allow work to be completed away from fixed workstations, including obviously in this case at home. Use of the laptops was mandatory for various classes.

WRT 2: They did require some sort of collateral or payment, but still had situations where a laptop was out there without it. I think this lawsuit is one of those cases, or they are now claiming so.

Re: Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued

#32

Post by pyre » Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 7:19 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #29

DanielStraight wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The presence of a nude photo shouldn't matter. America has lost sight of intent as a critical component in crime. The administrators of this system intentionally photographed minors in their bedrooms without their knowledge and without any consent. What the photos show is irrelevant. The obsession about the act over the intent is why we have highschool kids getting booked on child pornography charges for receiving na…

The presence of a nude photo shouldn't matter. This is incorrect, because incentives are important. If we don't hold people responsible for their actions, even when their actions are due to negligence or incompetence, then we build a society that is intentionally negligent and incompetent. When (hypothetically) some teenage girl's nude photos wind up on the web, I don't think that a "sorry, that was an accident" is g…

> Edit: I may have misunderstood you. I first read this to say that a hypothetical nude photo wouldn't be a big deal, because the school didn't mean to do that. Maybe you're saying the opposite, that it doesn't matter if there is NO such photo, because it should be obvious that it could easily happen.

I took it that GP is stating that we shouldn't only consider this to be a big deal if nude photos show up. We shouldn't have to hope that the 'child porn' card is played to have people suffer real consequences for what they did at that school.

Re: Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued

#33

Post by imgabe » Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 7:21 PM UTC

The district has said it turned on the camera in Robbins' computer because his family had not paid the $55 insurance fee and he was not authorized to take the laptop home.

This is puzzling. First of all, if he didn't pay the fee, why did he even have access to it to take it home? Secondly, if you already know where the laptop is and who has it, what's the point of turning on the camera? (Other than to satisfy your penchant for voyeurism)

Re: Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued

#34

Post by pyre » Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 7:29 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #31

Freebytes wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a tendency in society for people to blame the victim. You hear about rape crimes, and people ask what the girl was wearing with the idea that somehow she was 'asking for it.' I try to view the situation from both sides as much as possible, but I do not advocate blaming the vicitim in most circumstances. In this particular case, it is stupid for the school system to even implement this policy in the first pla…

WRT 3: If you think about it, a system has to be in "phone home" mode when it leaves (the school LAN in this case) for an anti-theft system to work. As I recall from my interpretation of what the school's sysadmin said (and perhaps others), when the system connects to the net and it's not the normal LAN, it automatically starts taking pictures and sending those, screen shots and the usual (IP address etc.) to the sch…

> As I recall from my interpretation of what the school's sysadmin said (and perhaps others), when the system connects to the net and it's not the normal LAN, it automatically starts taking pictures and sending those, screen shots and the usual (IP address etc.) to the school's servers. But I may be wrong.

Wouldn't it make more sense to query the school system to see if the laptop is flagged as stolen before using the camera?

Re: Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued

#35

Post by pyre » Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 7:31 PM UTC

billybob wrote: post #26

Freebytes wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a tendency in society for people to blame the victim. You hear about rape crimes, and people ask what the girl was wearing with the idea that somehow she was 'asking for it.' I try to view the situation from both sides as much as possible, but I do not advocate blaming the vicitim in most circumstances. In this particular case, it is stupid for the school system to even implement this policy in the first pla…

Besides all this, why the heck do they need pictures to track a device? A picture of a bedroom doesn't even tell you where the laptop is. A GPS reading does, and is far less invasive (though I would still insist on the students being notified about GPS tracking). Their 'solution' is incompetent AND malicious.

I think they thought that they would get a photo of the thief and it would make it easier to prosecute. (And giving that photo to the police would put that person on their radar as well).

Re: Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued

#36

Post by roofone » Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 8:07 PM UTC

Qz wrote: post #21

cperciva wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Translation: It saddens me that this is necessary. It wasn't long ago that Latin was part of the standard curriculum in grammar schools. The people For clarity: This is my answer, not the answer given by Plato (who argues that the guardians should guard themselves) or answer from Juvenal (who implicitly takes the position that this is an impossible problem).

I didn't take Latin and I still understood it. I don't think the translation was really necessary, more a statement 'I know Latin'.

I didn't take Latin and I did not understand it. I appreciate that someone took the time to translate it.

Re: Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued

#37

Post by hga » Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 8:19 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #34

hga wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WRT 3: If you think about it, a system has to be in "phone home" mode when it leaves (the school LAN in this case) for an anti-theft system to work. As I recall from my interpretation of what the school's sysadmin said (and perhaps others), when the system connects to the net and it's not the normal LAN, it automatically starts taking pictures and sending those, screen shots and the usual (IP address etc.) to the sch…

> As I recall from my interpretation of what the school's sysadmin said (and perhaps others), when the system connects to the net and it's not the normal LAN, it automatically starts taking pictures and sending those, screen shots and the usual (IP address etc.) to the school's servers. But I may be wrong. Wouldn't it make more sense to query the school system to see if the laptop is flagged as stolen before using th…

Purely from the security/retrieval viewpoint, I think not. You'd pass up potentially critical information that way.

Hmmm, I suppose from that viewpoint you'd also want to follow their policy of not telling anyone about the security system in the first place.

Re: Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued

#38

Post by DanielBMarkham » Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 8:50 PM UTC

I continue to be amazed that people are not more outraged about this. While there is some outrage and certainly charges will be filed, in general the public's opinion of their right to privacy and anonymity has shifted by orders of magnitude in the last 20 years.

Re: Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued

#39

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 8:52 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #29

DanielStraight wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The presence of a nude photo shouldn't matter. America has lost sight of intent as a critical component in crime. The administrators of this system intentionally photographed minors in their bedrooms without their knowledge and without any consent. What the photos show is irrelevant. The obsession about the act over the intent is why we have highschool kids getting booked on child pornography charges for receiving na…

The presence of a nude photo shouldn't matter. This is incorrect, because incentives are important. If we don't hold people responsible for their actions, even when their actions are due to negligence or incompetence, then we build a society that is intentionally negligent and incompetent. When (hypothetically) some teenage girl's nude photos wind up on the web, I don't think that a "sorry, that was an accident" is g…

I read it as 'the punishment should be the same just as if such pictures were taken'.

Re: Thousands of webcam images have been found in the school district being sued

#40

Post by DanielStraight » Fri, Apr 16, 2010, 8:52 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #32

CWuestefeld wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The presence of a nude photo shouldn't matter. This is incorrect, because incentives are important. If we don't hold people responsible for their actions, even when their actions are due to negligence or incompetence, then we build a society that is intentionally negligent and incompetent. When (hypothetically) some teenage girl's nude photos wind up on the web, I don't think that a "sorry, that was an accident" is g…

> Edit: I may have misunderstood you. I first read this to say that a hypothetical nude photo wouldn't be a big deal, because the school didn't mean to do that. Maybe you're saying the opposite, that it doesn't matter if there is NO such photo, because it should be obvious that it could easily happen. I took it that GP is stating that we shouldn't only consider this to be a big deal if nude photos show up. We shouldn…

This is correct.

Nevertheless, I am torn in how to response to CWuestefeld's point. I want to say that it would be just as bad to obsess over intent without worrying about act, but I'm not sure that's true.

Even in the cases presented (accidentally posting a nude photo and arresting someone who had not committed a crime), the crime is still not just in the act itself. The crime is also in the negligence involved. A negligent police officer should be punished even if no one is mistakenly arrested. If someone negligently handles nude photos (I'm not sure why you'd have them in the first place, but let's leave that aside for now), they should be punished even if the photos don't get leaked.

If social security numbers are leaked on a public website, those responsible should be punished even if no one loaded the page. If, however, a company is absolutely devoted to security but someone still breaks in and steals social security numbers, the company's punishment should be less, even though the act (social security numbers falling into the wrong hands) is less bad than the negligent company's act (social security numbers being mishandled but never falling into the wrong hands). I'd rather my social security number wasn't leaked, but I'd place greater trust in a company which handled it correctly and still got broken into than one that handled it recklessly but got lucky.

Really, I think that's the point I want to make above all: Luck should have no bearing on the law.