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We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

nautil.us

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Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#101

Post by tnecniv »

randyrand wrote: post #90
nostromo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's largely true. Violence is not extinct, but it's a tiny fraction of what it once was. http://i.imgur.com/sYuPCWP.png http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...

1946 - 2013 likely too small of a sample, IMO. There were peaceful times throughout history, and they were followed by very bloody times. e.g. If, say, bloodshed follows a sine wave, we should at least wait for a couple periods before any proclamation that we've reduced bloodshed.

What's interesting is that, during the roughly 40 years between German & Italian unification and WWI, it was one of the most peaceful times in history for Western Europe. Yes, there were wars, but they were mostly small conflicts in far away lands. However, if you look at many of the great thinkers from the era (its been a while since I studied the period, but Lord Kelvin jumps to mind first), they are extremely pessimistic and think the end of days is soon approaching.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#102

Post by rokhayakebe »

turc1656 wrote: post #11
leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good.

Untrue. Whatever humans do has a purpose. If this was in our nature, men will kill and leave their victim behind and move on to the next target.

However what we've observed over thousands of years is different. Men kill for a purpose, be it land, safety, women, rain, or whatever idiotic reason. Where men saw no purpose for killing, they did not. Therefore it is not part of our nature just like sex.

If you leave one man and one woman together for enough time, they will have sex together. If you left two men together most likely they will cooperate and not kill each other.

What's more. If it were in our nature to kill one another, then it would have been a trait shared with women as well. So far it appears Male are more likely to shed blood.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#103

Post by [deleted] »

vmorgulis wrote: post #97
turc1656 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

> People like to say that love is stronger than anger and hate. I have always disagreed. Because we are 7 billions. A least, we have enough love to take care of the children.

[deleted]

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#104

Post by beat »

jerf wrote: post #49
beat wrote: post #27

Mostly, this reminded me of one of my favorite short stories - "Von Neumann's Second Catastrophe", by Robert Anton Wilson. This story changed my view of why we have wars. The story is told from the point of view of a general in an insane asylum. He argues that war has been ruined by golems, creatures without souls. By golems, he means computers. The computers run scenarios for nuclear war, and always say don't do it…

I hope by "it changed your view", you don't mean that that is your current view. Look out into the world. It is not a model that makes any sense for why humans have wars. That model predicts not what we see, but an all-out bloodbath until civilization is dead. That model and civilization can not coexist in any form, and no, cynically trying to strike a pose that we aren't really "civilized" is not an out; even what w…

Oh, it's not my view - but it explains why war happens, in a very interesting way. I mean, everyone hates war, why do we have wars? Everyone says it's about fighting enemy soldiers, why are more civilians killed? It's a consistent, if horrible, explanation.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#105

Post by [deleted] »

amelius wrote: post #20
calibraxis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our own cultures are mysterious to us. Why are we hurtling towards climate change? Why do we sacrifice countries full of people, like in Iraq? Why must we release toxins in water that lower people's IQs? Why do we need to cage so many humans? Few have satisfactory explanations. (The most common ones don't stand up to basic scrutiny. Folk answers, ideological answers to explain away the ideology's problems, etc.)

Another question I'd like to add to your list: why are the current presidential elections such an incredible mess? The answer to all these questions could be that democracy has stopped working.

[deleted]

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#106

Post by beat »

mjevans wrote: post #92
jerf wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope by "it changed your view", you don't mean that that is your current view. Look out into the world. It is not a model that makes any sense for why humans have wars. That model predicts not what we see, but an all-out bloodbath until civilization is dead. That model and civilization can not coexist in any form, and no, cynically trying to strike a pose that we aren't really "civilized" is not an out; even what w…

Clearly Beat meant that the book explained the viewpoint of those who cry for war and destruction. The 'glory' and 'power' they feel must surely be an addictive sensation.

Within the story, it's not glory or power either. Glory comes from defeating equals - but the point is to kill the defenseless. Power comes from victory, but the victory is irrelevant.

Could you kill a child? Of course not. What kind of monster kills a helpless child? But if you can do it - you have become something more than merely human. Humans are confined by their morality. Supermen are not. And soldiers? Soldiers kill children all the time. That's why there's war.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#107

Post by kijin »

sophacles wrote: post #51
kijin wrote: post #29

I think there's something else going on here, other than the humility of researchers who claim to be unable to understand Mexica culture. Failure to imagine what it's like to be someone else, from a different place, a different time, with different ways of thinking -- is perhaps the biggest reason why we have so much violence and hatred in this world, and modern scholars are just as guilty of it as warmongers and pro…

Is it failure of imagination? I don't know that's true. Let's look at some of the aspect of life described in the article. Assume I'm just some artisan, good at my job, respected for my ability to work materials into goods. Making the odd innovation here and there. As a result I'm not in the ruling elite, nor the warrior "caste", but I'm doing pretty good for myself compared to most people. Basically let's just say I…

There is no need to decide whether the artisan worships or reviles the ruling elites. No society is so homogeneous as to make that question black-and-white. If someone does give a black-and-white answer, that's as good evidence as any that they don't really understand how cultures work.

Think of the gazillion different, mutually incompatible attitudes that modern Americans have about Hillary, Trump, and everyone else. Now re-imagine your artisan. You can be simultaneously afraid of being sacrificed and ashamed of being afraid. You might have a great deal of respect for some of the warriors but also revile the way they lick the elite's ass. You might have heard that the next village got leveled and all of their women and children enslaved because they dared to question the authority of the high priests, and have conflicting thoughts about whether they deserved it or not. Your friends might disagree with you on this matter, but some of them are afraid to speak out. But then this big customer wants his swords repaired by morning, and you don't have time to worry about those things anymore. Most of daily life is mundane, it has always been. Just because there are human sacrifices going on on that hill over there doesn't make life unrecognizable all of a sudden.

Knowledge of specific details is not a prerequisite for empathizing with someone as a human being. The point is to appreciate the many different ways that a Mexica life could be experienced (which you do very well) and keeping it all in your working memory instead of aggressively map-reducing it into answerless questions like "What did the artisans think about the warriors?" Likely, there were more than one artisan and more than one warrior.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#108

Post by mercutio2 »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #61
mhurron wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we abort children legally No we do not, that is illegal because murder is illegal. It is not a child until it is born.

https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2016/bills/house/1337#digest-... Indiana General Assembly, House Bill 1337 > Requires physicians to provide information about perinatal hospice care to a pregnant woman who is considering an abortion because the unborn child has been diagnosed with a lethal fetal anomaly. The terminology of referring to the unborn as children has a long legal history. There's a similar history concernin…

You're posting a link to anti-abortion propaganda from the 2016 Indiana Assembly as an argument for why those of us who strenuously disagree that fetuses deserve the legal rights of children should agree with calling fetuses children?

The Indiana Assembly is certainly an authority on one thing: legislating clever ways to restrict women's right to obtain an abortion. I don't consider them authorities on much else.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#109

Post by hilop »

mhurron wrote: post #52
ythl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His point was that you find something gratifying in the fantasy of murder and violence. If you don't find GTA to be abhorrent, then that means deep down some aspect of the anarchy and violence is appealing to you.

> deep down some aspect of the anarchy and violence is appealing to you. Or you like doing all the silly things a game lets you do. Because, you know, it's not real and you've probably realized that. I guess if you play Monopoly against Grandma and ream her a new one when she lands on your Boardwalk with a hotel on it deep down you want to be a slum lord. It couldn't possibly be as simple as you like winning games. S…

When your metaphorical language involves violently raping your grandmother, I am not sure your cigars are just cigars.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#110

Post by hilop »

beat wrote: post #104
jerf wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope by "it changed your view", you don't mean that that is your current view. Look out into the world. It is not a model that makes any sense for why humans have wars. That model predicts not what we see, but an all-out bloodbath until civilization is dead. That model and civilization can not coexist in any form, and no, cynically trying to strike a pose that we aren't really "civilized" is not an out; even what w…

Oh, it's not my view - but it explains why war happens, in a very interesting way. I mean, everyone hates war, why do we have wars? Everyone says it's about fighting enemy soldiers, why are more civilians killed? It's a consistent, if horrible, explanation.

What ? It's ridiculous. Leaders start wars to conquer territory and obtain material goods and sexual dominance. Followers go to war for economic opportunity or necessity. Murdering civilians for fun is a niche interest, often only the result of intense indoctrination by leaders with ulterior motives.
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