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We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

nautil.us

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Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#71

Post by ythl »

mhurron wrote: post #52
ythl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His point was that you find something gratifying in the fantasy of murder and violence. If you don't find GTA to be abhorrent, then that means deep down some aspect of the anarchy and violence is appealing to you.

> deep down some aspect of the anarchy and violence is appealing to you. Or you like doing all the silly things a game lets you do. Because, you know, it's not real and you've probably realized that. I guess if you play Monopoly against Grandma and ream her a new one when she lands on your Boardwalk with a hotel on it deep down you want to be a slum lord. It couldn't possibly be as simple as you like winning games. S…

You should start a VR game studio and make a game about kidnapping and raping children. People like being able to do silly things. Give them points for every rape and make sure there is a win condition (people like winning games). This type of game definitely won't appeal to people that have child sex fantasies deep down - after all, it's not real (and you've probably realized that)!

Come on, you can make the above case for Mario, but it's a harder sell when we are talking about Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#72

Post by XparXnoiAx »

kawa wrote: post #39
coldtea wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone tries to explain stuff based on the "human psyche", it's important to understand that people aren't the same. It's also very important to understand that people are more alike than different. The "not the same" thing I've found to be mostly based on superficial differences, whereas all the basic imperatives (sex drive, evolutionary instincts, core cultural values, etc are mostly the same wherever).

While people are of course more alike to each other than, for example humans and cows, there are still a lot of differences between single persons. People tend to assume that other think as they do, but that's one of the most common sources for misunderstandings. There are people who can torture a child to death without feeling the smallest amount of guild (maybe they even find it funny or satisfying), others who cou…

"And it's not possible to shift a person people into all of those categories, it's mostly inborn"

You're making a helluvan assertion there. You're going to need a citation, because psychology has no clue about this.

-signed, A Psychopath

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#73

Post by viewer5 »

tremon wrote: post #31
kawa wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone tries to explain stuff based on the "human psyche", it's important to understand that people aren't the same. If someone talks about "we" or "humanity" as a whole, he/she doesn't takes this into consideration - which makes the whole argument questionable. An estimated 2-5% of all humans are so called "psychopaths", people without the ability to feel empathy for other peoples pain. Those people are at the s…

An estimated 2-5% of all humans are so called "psychopaths", people without the ability to feel empathy for other peoples pain And another 90% have herd mentality, people that can easily mold their personality to match the dominant type in their in-group. There have been numerous studies that show that group mentality can override people's personal moral boundaries.

90%? Could you please provide a citation for such a large number?

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#74

Post by mhurron »

ythl wrote: post #71
mhurron wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> deep down some aspect of the anarchy and violence is appealing to you. Or you like doing all the silly things a game lets you do. Because, you know, it's not real and you've probably realized that. I guess if you play Monopoly against Grandma and ream her a new one when she lands on your Boardwalk with a hotel on it deep down you want to be a slum lord. It couldn't possibly be as simple as you like winning games. S…

You should start a VR game studio and make a game about kidnapping and raping children. People like being able to do silly things. Give them points for every rape and make sure there is a win condition (people like winning games). This type of game definitely won't appeal to people that have child sex fantasies deep down - after all, it's not real (and you've probably realized that)! Come on, you can make the above c…

If you are run by your morals in a completely unreal situation that has no real effects in the exact same way as you would in a real situation, you may have problems separating fantasy and reality.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#75

Post by Typhon »

70 years after the Holocaust, 40 years after Cambodia and Viet Nam, 20 years after Rwanda, as Syria is partly occupied by ISIS, what I truly can't fathom is how anyone would single out senseless bloodlust as "that alien thing from a distant dead civilisation we will never understand".

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#76

Post by imagist »

Typhon wrote: post #75

70 years after the Holocaust, 40 years after Cambodia and Viet Nam, 20 years after Rwanda, as Syria is partly occupied by ISIS, what I truly can't fathom is how anyone would single out senseless bloodlust as "that alien thing from a distant dead civilisation we will never understand".

15 years after we invaded Iraq, a country which had nothing to do with 9/11 and no WMDs, or at least fewer WMDs than the US.

It's easy to distance ourselves from things that didn't happen in our country or in our lifetimes, but the reality is that we're just as bloodthirsty as anyone else.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#77

Post by otakucode »

turc1656 wrote: post #11
leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

Modern research suggests that you are utterly wrong when it comes to violence. Violence damages people (those who commit it I mean), and they have many built-in impediments to it. Military training is not simple. It is difficult to take an average person and make them willing to kill. Ability isn't the sticking point, humans are really quite easy to kill, we're pretty fragile.

One big reason people aren't butchering each other in the streets is because those who butcher, by and large, are crippled by the trauma of it. Having a rational justification for violence (protecting ones self, protecting ones family, protecting ones nation) does nothing to assuage the deep-rooted trauma that inflicting violence on another human being causes. PTSD is a neurological malady, not a psychological one.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#78

Post by gknoy »

mhurron wrote: post #74
ythl wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should start a VR game studio and make a game about kidnapping and raping children. People like being able to do silly things. Give them points for every rape and make sure there is a win condition (people like winning games). This type of game definitely won't appeal to people that have child sex fantasies deep down - after all, it's not real (and you've probably realized that)! Come on, you can make the above c…

If you are run by your morals in a completely unreal situation that has no real effects in the exact same way as you would in a real situation, you may have problems separating fantasy and reality.

I'm not sure I agree. I think games can be a good way to explore the way you apply your morals. You can choose to be a jerk or not, be kind or be a monster -- and since the consequences don't matter, it might even be a truer test.

When I recently re-played Deus Ex (Human revolution), you can choose to play the game in a pretty much pacifist way. I didn't do that, but at the same time I didn't go laying a trail of carnage through the city, killing the police, etc.

The game puts you in situations where you usually have a choice about your actions -- I can sneak around (harder), I can kill the guard, I can kill the police officer, etc. I had no problem killing the mercenaries that would shoot me if they saw me, but after killing an NPC police officer (in frustration after setting off alarms), I felt compelled to do it again until I could master doing nonlethal takedowns, or knock them out with a sedative dart.

I don't think this is a matter of having a problem separating fantasy and reality. Rather, it's a lens to look at our own behavior and feelings about violence. I have no problem shooting other players in the face in a game like Call of Duty or Counter-Strike (which is effectively paintball), but I get deeply disturbed at the idea of killing (or spawning + harvesting?) non-hostile NPCs in games like Minecraft or Deus Ex.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#79

Post by ythl »

mhurron wrote: post #74
ythl wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should start a VR game studio and make a game about kidnapping and raping children. People like being able to do silly things. Give them points for every rape and make sure there is a win condition (people like winning games). This type of game definitely won't appeal to people that have child sex fantasies deep down - after all, it's not real (and you've probably realized that)! Come on, you can make the above c…

If you are run by your morals in a completely unreal situation that has no real effects in the exact same way as you would in a real situation, you may have problems separating fantasy and reality.

I'm arguing nothing of the sort, only that the sheer number of people enjoying and fulfilling fantasies of violence and destruction are indicative of deep instinctual human tendencies.

Most people would not enjoy child rape simulator 3000 because most people do not have embedded instincts to do such things. Some people, however, may enjoy CR3000, and I would venture to guess that there is an underlying reason (i.e. pedophilia).

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#80

Post by nostromo »

Typhon wrote: post #75

70 years after the Holocaust, 40 years after Cambodia and Viet Nam, 20 years after Rwanda, as Syria is partly occupied by ISIS, what I truly can't fathom is how anyone would single out senseless bloodlust as "that alien thing from a distant dead civilisation we will never understand".

Because it's largely true. Violence is not extinct, but it's a tiny fraction of what it once was.

http://i.imgur.com/sYuPCWP.png

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...

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