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We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

nautil.us

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Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#91

Post by DanTheManPR »

lappet wrote: post #67

I feel that the article is missing something that is very important - the violence of the Spaniards. Did not the Spaniards stamp and erase the culture & religion of the Mexica? If the Mexica culture had been allowed to exist could we not understand them better? I feel the title is a little clickbaity and would wager most civilizations can barely fathom their own past.

Westerners can relate to the Spanish conquistadors, because we share the same cultural family tree. Westerners can understand why something like greed could be such a motivator that the Spaniards would cross an entire ocean to pursue violence against a people... because they had land and gold. You can probably find cultures today who would find that concept alien and unknowable. The point is not the violence per-se, but how it's difficult to grok the deeply ingrained motivations of cultures (especially ones that are long-dead).

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#92

Post by mjevans »

jerf wrote: post #49
beat wrote: post #27

Mostly, this reminded me of one of my favorite short stories - "Von Neumann's Second Catastrophe", by Robert Anton Wilson. This story changed my view of why we have wars. The story is told from the point of view of a general in an insane asylum. He argues that war has been ruined by golems, creatures without souls. By golems, he means computers. The computers run scenarios for nuclear war, and always say don't do it…

I hope by "it changed your view", you don't mean that that is your current view. Look out into the world. It is not a model that makes any sense for why humans have wars. That model predicts not what we see, but an all-out bloodbath until civilization is dead. That model and civilization can not coexist in any form, and no, cynically trying to strike a pose that we aren't really "civilized" is not an out; even what w…

Clearly Beat meant that the book explained the viewpoint of those who cry for war and destruction. The 'glory' and 'power' they feel must surely be an addictive sensation.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#93

Post by eric_h »

timdellinger wrote: post #86
leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

> There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. I would argue that we express it in ritualized form: in the U.S., that's NFL, college, and high school (and younger) football. And for those looking for a stronger dose, mixed martial arts.

A very good point. Personally, I don't particularly enjoy watching football, though I can follow the game. I also don't particularly enjoy watching MMA, though I can appreciate good technique (having trained in martial arts for many years). I cringe when actual damage is done, but at the same time I can't look away.

Personally, my favorite form of simulated violence is the sport of fencing[1], though when I fence, I'm not imagining running my opponent through, or imagining that I've eviscerated them when I score a touch, I'm simply imagining the green or red light turning on; it's really just about the game and the technique for me.

1)I do also very much enjoy the Metal Gear Solid series of games, but generally (on the most recent edition) I always try for a no kills finish for a mission, and not just for the points.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#94

Post by vacri »

randyrand wrote: post #90
nostromo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's largely true. Violence is not extinct, but it's a tiny fraction of what it once was. http://i.imgur.com/sYuPCWP.png http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...

1946 - 2013 likely too small of a sample, IMO. There were peaceful times throughout history, and they were followed by very bloody times. e.g. If, say, bloodshed follows a sine wave, we should at least wait for a couple periods before any proclamation that we've reduced bloodshed.

The peaceful times also generally don't make the history books.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#95

Post by vacri »

Typhon wrote: post #81
imagist wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 years after we invaded Iraq, a country which had nothing to do with 9/11 and no WMDs, or at least fewer WMDs than the US. It's easy to distance ourselves from things that didn't happen in our country or in our lifetimes, but the reality is that we're just as bloodthirsty as anyone else.

Well I thought Viet Nam was a more clear cut example of America being barbarous but yeah, Iraq works as well, let's not forget Abu Ghraib. Anyway, as far as I know, although my country has committed its share of horrible massacres around the world, none of it has happened in my lifetime... I just hope it'll last.

The US military learned its lesson in Vietnam: don't let the media see what you're doing. We'll simply never know how US soldiers behaved in Iraq as compared to Vietnam.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#96

Post by 08-15 »

pipio21 wrote: post #32
VLM wrote: post #4

Carthage is much closer to western culture yet still earns its share of WTFs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Carthage#Child_sac...

Well, we abort children legally, so it is not like we have improved so much. In Spain and other countries it is legal to abort creatures that would live if taken out of the womb. We rationalize it, because the mother will not be able to give a good life to her child or whatever. What makes us think that people from Carthage could not also rationalize with more powerful reasons than us? It was way harder to live back…

> Well, we abort children legally

Fetuses. A fetus is not a child.

I don't care about your opinion, but I do care about precise use of language.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#97

Post by vmorgulis »

turc1656 wrote: post #11
leereeves wrote: post #5

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

> People like to say that love is stronger than anger and hate. I have always disagreed.

Because we are 7 billions. A least, we have enough love to take care of the children.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#98

Post by oldmanjay »

ythl wrote: post #28
namaemuta wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies Yeah. it's called fiction and a more significant portion of people in the world consume all that without committing mass murder. So please, stop associating video games or movies with whatever crazy people do.

His point was that you find something gratifying in the fantasy of murder and violence. If you don't find GTA to be abhorrent, then that means deep down some aspect of the anarchy and violence is appealing to you.

The aspects of GTA that appeal to me aren't deep down in my psyche at all. Are you trying to insinuate that people who enjoy the game must be burying their true feelings?

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#99

Post by oldmanjay »

08-15 wrote: post #96
pipio21 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we abort children legally, so it is not like we have improved so much. In Spain and other countries it is legal to abort creatures that would live if taken out of the womb. We rationalize it, because the mother will not be able to give a good life to her child or whatever. What makes us think that people from Carthage could not also rationalize with more powerful reasons than us? It was way harder to live back…

> Well, we abort children legally Fetuses. A fetus is not a child . I don't care about your opinion, but I do care about precise use of language.

The language nitpicking seems like a grand way to miss the point being made and rather poetically make the exact same point at the same time.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#100

Post by tnecniv »

projektir wrote: post #85
noobermin wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it "[i]s in our nature, just like sex" then why wouldn't violence be in our best interest? Why wouldn't we be more productive just doing what we want? If it really is our nature, then how is our "modern luxur[y]?" It has been established that while violence is the human condition, altruism also has an evolutionary origin[0]. I feel like the "sweet water/bitter water" dichotomy that the Christian tradition left us[…

Because our best interest is not the same as evolution's interest. We, or, at least, some of us, have figured out, after a long time, that violence is not a good thing. But violence is what evolution runs on, because it wants the weak to die and the strong to reproduce. Altruism happened because groups of people ended up stronger than individual people, so there needed to be mechanisms to override violence impulses t…

> I believe Christianity was designed to oppose this programming (original sin), but it's a 2k old religion, what do you expect? So much has changed since then, our methods in many places got better; Christianity is out of date and has too many dependencies.

I think this holds for a bunch of old religious beliefs. A lot of the old, seemingly arbitrary laws from Judaism had practical purposes in ancient times.

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