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We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

nautil.us

81–90 of 125 posts

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#81
post #76
post #75

70 years after the Holocaust, 40 years after Cambodia and Viet Nam, 20 years after Rwanda, as Syria is partly occupied by ISIS, what I truly can't fathom is how anyone would single out senseless bloodlust as "that alien thing from a distant dead civilisation we will never understand".

15 years after we invaded Iraq, a country which had nothing to do with 9/11 and no WMDs, or at least fewer WMDs than the US. It's easy to distance ourselves from things that didn't happen in our country or in our lifetimes, but the reality is that we're just as bloodthirsty as anyone else.

Well I thought Viet Nam was a more clear cut example of America being barbarous but yeah, Iraq works as well, let's not forget Abu Ghraib.

Anyway, as far as I know, although my country has committed its share of horrible massacres around the world, none of it has happened in my lifetime... I just hope it'll last.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#82
post #75

70 years after the Holocaust, 40 years after Cambodia and Viet Nam, 20 years after Rwanda, as Syria is partly occupied by ISIS, what I truly can't fathom is how anyone would single out senseless bloodlust as "that alien thing from a distant dead civilisation we will never understand".

In your examples, it's about (many) individuals who chose to do bad things together. The article is talking about cultural violence, in the sense that a whole nation was behind it. I see it more comparable to "circus" games in Colosseo, or legally approved slavery, wherever and whenever it happened, rather than to Nazis or ISIS.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#83
post #82
post #75

70 years after the Holocaust, 40 years after Cambodia and Viet Nam, 20 years after Rwanda, as Syria is partly occupied by ISIS, what I truly can't fathom is how anyone would single out senseless bloodlust as "that alien thing from a distant dead civilisation we will never understand".

In your examples, it's about (many) individuals who chose to do bad things together. The article is talking about cultural violence, in the sense that a whole nation was behind it. I see it more comparable to "circus" games in Colosseo, or legally approved slavery, wherever and whenever it happened, rather than to Nazis or ISIS.

I disagree completely with you on this. Nazi violence was just as much a product of culture and social forces than Aztec violence, it's merely much closer to home and we know a lot more about it.

I think this 'outlier excuse' works when talking about serial killers or even criminal gangs, but I'm talking about violence on a much bigger scale, a scale where cultural factors are always contributing.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

I'm a grown-up man and I've never played a violent game and I still look away from violent scenes in movies and tv. I've been exposed to some very violent imagery by accident in movies and I didn't like it and I didn't want to see it ever again. Is it genetic ? Is it because I was raised a Christian and only allowed to watch tv after the age of 8 ? I'm atheist now, but maybe my Christian upbringing was a factor. Or m…

Christianity is a mixed bag.

Had Roman and Greek values triumphed we might be in a better world. Perhaps we wouldn't have needed monks on lonely islands copying ancient texts had we not had a Dark Age.

> There are many people who don't think violent thoughts, don't want to do anything nasty, who are nice people who don't need laws to stop them from doing things.

And you shall curse those same people as weak if the enemy comes to town to slaughter everybody. As you would also were the Army to round up members of your faith for the deathcamps.

Surely you see the irony of a powerful God ruling the Earth being a necessity in order for the meek to inherit it.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. Have you ever seen the movie The Imitation Game? There's a great quote from Turing's character when he is talking about being picked on and beaten up by bullies at school - "Do you know why people like violence? It is because it feels good. Humans find violence deeply satisfying" It's that simple, really. It is in our nature, just like sex. We like it. It feels good. The only reason we try to eschew an…

If it "[i]s in our nature, just like sex" then why wouldn't violence be in our best interest? Why wouldn't we be more productive just doing what we want? If it really is our nature, then how is our "modern luxur[y]?" It has been established that while violence is the human condition, altruism also has an evolutionary origin[0]. I feel like the "sweet water/bitter water" dichotomy that the Christian tradition left us[…

Because our best interest is not the same as evolution's interest.

We, or, at least, some of us, have figured out, after a long time, that violence is not a good thing. But violence is what evolution runs on, because it wants the weak to die and the strong to reproduce. Altruism happened because groups of people ended up stronger than individual people, so there needed to be mechanisms to override violence impulses to enable groups. But the groups of people were still supposed to kill each other over and over to make stronger groups of people. The altruism is not universal. Hence all the ingroup biases. And much of that still remains to this day. All of us are violent directly or by proxy towards animals. Even if people are not violent, many are mean, they create pecking orders, they measure status, they compete, etc. They are executing adaptations developed to categorize people or groups of people as "should not be selected". The old programming is still there.

Except our combination of intelligence, empathy, sympathy, altruism, and strength "backfired" and resulted in us slowly deciding, for ourselves, that maybe we don't want to live like that.

I believe Christianity was designed to oppose this programming (original sin), but it's a 2k old religion, what do you expect? So much has changed since then, our methods in many places got better; Christianity is out of date and has too many dependencies.

I also don't think your characterization is fair, anyway. Christianity doesn't say we can only be bad or only good, it says that goodness demands complete purity, and through that, it says we're all bad, due to an influence inside of us, as well as an influence outside. While there are people more prone to violence and those more prone to love, there's nobody completely free from the programming or the situation.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#86

> What was the reason for all this carnage? Perhaps there was no rational reason, and we are closer to understanding than we'd like to admit. A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies. There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy. Yet thousands are murdered eve…

> There's a cruelty, a bloodlust, deep in the human psyche that even now isn't socialized away, merely supressed, to be satisfied only in fantasy.

I would argue that we express it in ritualized form: in the U.S., that's NFL, college, and high school (and younger) football. And for those looking for a stronger dose, mixed martial arts.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#87
post #81
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 years after we invaded Iraq, a country which had nothing to do with 9/11 and no WMDs, or at least fewer WMDs than the US. It's easy to distance ourselves from things that didn't happen in our country or in our lifetimes, but the reality is that we're just as bloodthirsty as anyone else.

Well I thought Viet Nam was a more clear cut example of America being barbarous but yeah, Iraq works as well, let's not forget Abu Ghraib. Anyway, as far as I know, although my country has committed its share of horrible massacres around the world, none of it has happened in my lifetime... I just hope it'll last.

Yeah, agreed, Viet Nam is more clear-cut because history has given time for the politicization to settle down. But Iraq is more relatable (or in the words of the OP title, "Fathomable").

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A significant portion of modern Americans regularly enjoy blood and carnage in video games and movies Yeah. it's called fiction and a more significant portion of people in the world consume all that without committing mass murder. So please, stop associating video games or movies with whatever crazy people do.

I enjoy those games and movies myself. It's not my intention to suggest that enjoying those means that our socialization has failed or that we are dangerous (which I do not believe), but that those games and movies appeal to something in our nature that still exists in many of the most well socialized Americans.

I don't know about that. I play many games, including violent ones, and I don't really think the appeal is associated with some sort of a natural bloodthirst. I think the #1 reason for large amounts of violence in video games is because a violent conflict is much easier to make a narrative and game mechanics about, and a lot of fun activities are associated with previously violent pursuits, but I believe it exists in a completely different sphere from real life violence and doesn't really connect.

It's similar to how one may find archery fun, and archery was designed to kill people, but people don't find archery fun because they want to kill people, they just find it fun to shoot arrows and that gaining of fun probably was designed to make people better at violence but there's no actual direct connection.

On the other hand, the gaming situations where I have seen the negative aspects of nature come out were games that layered social aspects on top. MMORPG's, especially ones like DayZ, and, at worst, competitive games like League of Legends. When a single player game gets bad, like Doom or Nox, it gets bad over the multiplayer aspect. That's where all the nasty stuff really comes out, and it's not the art or the violence in the design of the game itself causing it, but the socializing aspect, power imbalances, etc. Meanwhile, people are cooperating pretty well in games like KSP or Minecraft as long as you avoid PvP servers, and even in the really dark, violent games like Dark Souls, again, as long as you stay away from PvP.

Human violence instincts seem to come out in situations that simulate social pressures, such as those where there is evaluation, power imbalance, and competitions. Single player games, no matter how much blood is falling on the floor, don't seem to do that to their communities as long as PvP is not involved.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#89
post #78
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are run by your morals in a completely unreal situation that has no real effects in the exact same way as you would in a real situation, you may have problems separating fantasy and reality.

I'm not sure I agree. I think games can be a good way to explore the way you apply your morals. You can choose to be a jerk or not, be kind or be a monster -- and since the consequences don't matter, it might even be a truer test. When I recently re-played Deus Ex (Human revolution), you can choose to play the game in a pretty much pacifist way. I didn't do that, but at the same time I didn't go laying a trail of car…

I think that's going to depend on your immersion level.

Games with that degree of role-playing are fairly rare to begin with, and most people also don't get terribly immersed in them, so often that NPC you care about to them is just a number.

I generally treat everything in Minecraft very mechanically, as numbers, because Minecraft just feels that way to me. But in a proper RPG, it's not so simple.

Re: We May Never Truly Fathom Other Cultures

#90
post #75

70 years after the Holocaust, 40 years after Cambodia and Viet Nam, 20 years after Rwanda, as Syria is partly occupied by ISIS, what I truly can't fathom is how anyone would single out senseless bloodlust as "that alien thing from a distant dead civilisation we will never understand".

Because it's largely true. Violence is not extinct, but it's a tiny fraction of what it once was. http://i.imgur.com/sYuPCWP.png http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2...

1946 - 2013 likely too small of a sample, IMO.

There were peaceful times throughout history, and they were followed by very bloody times. e.g. If, say, bloodshed follows a sine wave, we should at least wait for a couple periods before any proclamation that we've reduced bloodshed.

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