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Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

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Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#21
post #3

From the article: "Why? Discussion on the Scratch forums suggests that it’s because Apple wants to focus on consuming media using these devices, not producing media. Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well as read? There’s no app for that." No, it's because (as far as I can tell) the Scratch iPhone app was acting as a Scratch interpreter which is explicitly not allowed on the App Store to begin w…

That post really puts the "C/C++/Obj-C" thing into much starker relief than the "wish I could use lisp" discussion. Geeks can get around 3.3.1 if they're clever enough; replacing a democratizing technology like Scratch, on the other hand, may be impossible. That said, if their app really was an interpreter, I'm surprised it made it into the store in the first place. And if anything, the typical Scratch output of a cr…

[deleted]

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#22
I find this very interesting because (as mentioned in one of the comments) it seems that running anything with saved data on a computer could potentially constitute 'running interpreted code'. And that is really the thing that has bothered me about the whole fiasco. The policy seems to come from a fundamental misunderstanding of how computers actually work.

Normally we think of there being a huge difference between code and data... psychologically we categorize notepad.exe and a .txt file differently from a scheme interpreter and a .scm file.

But really, at a macroscopic level, they operate in a very similar way. If I open a text file in notepad, notepad reads the binary data in the file, and interprets it as ASCII or Unicode, and then prints it to the monitor.

And the same process takes place in a scheme interpreter. I open the file, binary is read and interpreted as scheme code, and the results of interpretation are printed to the monitor.

(This is even more obvious with something like html).

You could easily think of different file formats as different programming languages, and different programs for opening them as interpreters for said language (what is MS Word but an interpreter for .doc codes?) Every time I save a file, I am having the computer generate a little interpretable program. (A continuation?)

But when you realize this, it seems like any policy banning interpreters logically collapses. If I can't have an interpreter, I can't save files, if I can't save files, what is the point?

So you could look at scratch as something that allows you to save scratch files, or you could look at scratch as something that allows you to interpret scratch code... it doesn't really matter.

Saving and compiling are the same thing, reading and interpreting are the same thing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would mean that between their rules, they can (theoretically) outlaw any program that does much more than cause the device to become warm.

Granted, they won't, because they have a certain notion of 'how computers work', which is generally shared, but it isn't particularly true..

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That post really puts the "C/C++/Obj-C" thing into much starker relief than the "wish I could use lisp" discussion. Geeks can get around 3.3.1 if they're clever enough; replacing a democratizing technology like Scratch, on the other hand, may be impossible. That said, if their app really was an interpreter, I'm surprised it made it into the store in the first place. And if anything, the typical Scratch output of a cr…

They built it on top of Squeak. That thing is one of the most straightforward VMs to port. The runtimes execute bit-identical. Years ago they were on 40 different platforms, and I've lost track. It's an incredibly elegant architecture.

One javascript implementation is the lively kernel, here http://www.lively-kernel.org/

I'd bet there are others.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#24
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That post really puts the "C/C++/Obj-C" thing into much starker relief than the "wish I could use lisp" discussion. Geeks can get around 3.3.1 if they're clever enough; replacing a democratizing technology like Scratch, on the other hand, may be impossible. That said, if their app really was an interpreter, I'm surprised it made it into the store in the first place. And if anything, the typical Scratch output of a cr…

[deleted]

This app would've been rejected even before the changes to 3.3.1.

It wasn't rejected. It made it into the store and was removed later.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#25

Next up "Etch A Sketch"-like iApps will be banned since the viewers will interpret de data from the server and display other users' sketches. God forbid you use JSON to communicate with the server in your app and parse it yourself, that's too close to Javascript-parsing and you can only use the approved Javascript interpreter for that. It's starting to look a bit like a joke. Yeah, of course, typing this on my MacBoo…

It just occurred to me you officially cannot make an iPhone app that displays PDF documents - because rendering a PDF involves interpreting a program written in the PostScript programming language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript#The_language).

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#26
post #3

From the article: "Why? Discussion on the Scratch forums suggests that it’s because Apple wants to focus on consuming media using these devices, not producing media. Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well as read? There’s no app for that." No, it's because (as far as I can tell) the Scratch iPhone app was acting as a Scratch interpreter which is explicitly not allowed on the App Store to begin w…

It would be great if someone could copy the text of their post. My developer account recently expired and I don't really want to pay $99 just to view one forum post.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Build for free software platforms like Linux or the Web and these issues go away. Being outraged at Apple policies when the web is free is like being outraged at your employer when you are free to start your own business.

"Free" is a term that always benefits from definition. How free am I to start my own business? Well, that depends on relative power, and how precarious my financial situation is, my debt load, my family responsibilities, and other things. It's not just a simple question of "is it physically possible?" I'm not sure how directly applicable that critique is to the analogy, except to say that I am well within my rights t…

> Build for free software platforms like Linux or the Web and these issues go away.

Is this statement true or false?

> Being outraged at Apple policies when the web is free is like being outraged at your employer when you are free to start your own business.

Does this statement say you are not entitled to be outraged at Apple or at your employer? Or does it merely say that being outraged at Apple when you have alternative target platforms is like being outraged at your employer when you can start your own business?

Making money from the web appears to be more difficult that making money from iPhone software. Starting your own business appears to be more difficult than working for yourself.

Don't these statements support the simile?

I support your choice to push Apple for "progressive change." But just as you may choose to push them to change, I choose to push developers to change. I hope you accept the direct comparison I am drawing.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#28
post #2

IMHO, this should cause more outrage than all the developer related policies. Apple has always been a world apart, with a strong philosophy and its own priorities. But the culture around its products was all about fostering creativity. I used to say to friends: get a Mac if you want an hassle-free computer to make things (music, graphics design and even programming. Does anyone remember HyperCard, which at one point…

I agree that it should cause more concern -- but how about more "reflection and rethinking" than "outrage". The kids with the most to gain from an encouraging tool like Scratch can't afford iPods anyway.

> The kids with the most to gain from an encouraging tool like Scratch can't afford iPods anyway.

That's why they have parents.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#29

Next up "Etch A Sketch"-like iApps will be banned since the viewers will interpret de data from the server and display other users' sketches. God forbid you use JSON to communicate with the server in your app and parse it yourself, that's too close to Javascript-parsing and you can only use the approved Javascript interpreter for that. It's starting to look a bit like a joke. Yeah, of course, typing this on my MacBoo…

It just occurred to me you officially cannot make an iPhone app that displays PDF documents - because rendering a PDF involves interpreting a program written in the PostScript programming language ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript#The_language ).

No. PDFs only uses the PostScript imaging model, not the PostScript programming language.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#30
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be possible to create a Scratch execution environment on top of Javascript/Safari. A cross compiler done correctly might run faster than the "native" Squeak VM.

Do you know if anyone has built anything non-trivial with Clamato? ( http://clamato.net/ )

I've certainly built stuff with it that is useful, and some if it is even production, but none of it as complex as, say, the Clamato environment itself.

I don't know of anyone else who has.

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