Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#11

Post by wvenable » Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 7:07 PM UTC

ajg1977 wrote: post #10

aphistic wrote: post #3

From the article: "Why? Discussion on the Scratch forums suggests that it’s because Apple wants to focus on consuming media using these devices, not producing media. Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well as read? There’s no app for that." No, it's because (as far as I can tell) the Scratch iPhone app was acting as a Scratch interpreter which is explicitly not allowed on the App Store to begin w…

So I imagine Apple will soon be taking down the Secret of Money Island and the Sim games, since I know for a fact both of these use interpreters. No, of course they won't. Because those titles bring in big bucks and are from the types of developer Apple wants to develop for their device. It the capricious and selective enforcement of the SDKs T&Cs that is the biggest problem for developers. It's not that Apple are ag…

Actually they fully allow interpreters as long as it doesn't allow users to run arbitrary code. They allowed the Commodore 64 emulator once direct access to the BASIC interpreter was removed: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/11/10/iphone-commodore-64-emulat...

Of course, all these products were put into the app store before rule 3.3.1.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#12

Post by stcredzero » Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 7:09 PM UTC

aphistic wrote: post #3

From the article: "Why? Discussion on the Scratch forums suggests that it’s because Apple wants to focus on consuming media using these devices, not producing media. Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well as read? There’s no app for that." No, it's because (as far as I can tell) the Scratch iPhone app was acting as a Scratch interpreter which is explicitly not allowed on the App Store to begin w…

It should be possible to create a Scratch execution environment on top of Javascript/Safari. A cross compiler done correctly might run faster than the "native" Squeak VM.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#13

Post by stcredzero » Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 7:13 PM UTC

aristoxenus wrote: post #6

aphistic wrote: post #3

From the article: "Why? Discussion on the Scratch forums suggests that it’s because Apple wants to focus on consuming media using these devices, not producing media. Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well as read? There’s no app for that." No, it's because (as far as I can tell) the Scratch iPhone app was acting as a Scratch interpreter which is explicitly not allowed on the App Store to begin w…

That post really puts the "C/C++/Obj-C" thing into much starker relief than the "wish I could use lisp" discussion. Geeks can get around 3.3.1 if they're clever enough; replacing a democratizing technology like Scratch, on the other hand, may be impossible. That said, if their app really was an interpreter, I'm surprised it made it into the store in the first place. And if anything, the typical Scratch output of a cr…

They built it on top of Squeak. That thing is one of the most straightforward VMs to port. The runtimes execute bit-identical. Years ago they were on 40 different platforms, and I've lost track. It's an incredibly elegant architecture.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#14

Post by fierarul » Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 7:18 PM UTC

Next up "Etch A Sketch"-like iApps will be banned since the viewers will interpret de data from the server and display other users' sketches.

God forbid you use JSON to communicate with the server in your app and parse it yourself, that's too close to Javascript-parsing and you can only use the approved Javascript interpreter for that.

It's starting to look a bit like a joke.

Yeah, of course, typing this on my MacBook Pro... It's a weird love-hate thing with Apple these days.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#15

Post by cpr » Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 7:18 PM UTC

Now THIS really got my attention. I was holding my nose lightly through all the flap so far, and I'm quite sympathetic to Apple's desire to keep Flash off the platform, but disallowing educational software just because it's running a Smalltalk interpreter?

A polite but forceful email to Jobs is on the way...

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#16

Post by aristoxenus » Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 7:20 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #13

aristoxenus wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That post really puts the "C/C++/Obj-C" thing into much starker relief than the "wish I could use lisp" discussion. Geeks can get around 3.3.1 if they're clever enough; replacing a democratizing technology like Scratch, on the other hand, may be impossible. That said, if their app really was an interpreter, I'm surprised it made it into the store in the first place. And if anything, the typical Scratch output of a cr…

They built it on top of Squeak. That thing is one of the most straightforward VMs to port. The runtimes execute bit-identical. Years ago they were on 40 different platforms, and I've lost track. It's an incredibly elegant architecture.

That's cool. Should have said "happy" instead of "impressed" -- knowing nothing about the technical side, I was imagining the impact of letting kids program ipods/iphones. They must have loved that.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#17

Post by angumagu » Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 7:22 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #9

cesare wrote: post #2

IMHO, this should cause more outrage than all the developer related policies. Apple has always been a world apart, with a strong philosophy and its own priorities. But the culture around its products was all about fostering creativity. I used to say to friends: get a Mac if you want an hassle-free computer to make things (music, graphics design and even programming. Does anyone remember HyperCard, which at one point…

Build for free software platforms like Linux or the Web and these issues go away. Being outraged at Apple policies when the web is free is like being outraged at your employer when you are free to start your own business.

"Free" is a term that always benefits from definition. How free am I to start my own business? Well, that depends on relative power, and how precarious my financial situation is, my debt load, my family responsibilities, and other things. It's not just a simple question of "is it physically possible?"

I'm not sure how directly applicable that critique is to the analogy, except to say that I am well within my rights to be outraged at my own employer for many reasons, whether or not I have the opportunity to start my own business. "Love it or leave it" is generally a cheap argument for dismissing folks who are pushing for progressive change in a system.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#18

Post by icey » Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 7:25 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #12

aphistic wrote: post #3

From the article: "Why? Discussion on the Scratch forums suggests that it’s because Apple wants to focus on consuming media using these devices, not producing media. Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well as read? There’s no app for that." No, it's because (as far as I can tell) the Scratch iPhone app was acting as a Scratch interpreter which is explicitly not allowed on the App Store to begin w…

It should be possible to create a Scratch execution environment on top of Javascript/Safari. A cross compiler done correctly might run faster than the "native" Squeak VM.

Do you know if anyone has built anything non-trivial with Clamato?

(http://clamato.net/)

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#19

Post by rubinelli » Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 7:34 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #12

aphistic wrote: post #3

From the article: "Why? Discussion on the Scratch forums suggests that it’s because Apple wants to focus on consuming media using these devices, not producing media. Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well as read? There’s no app for that." No, it's because (as far as I can tell) the Scratch iPhone app was acting as a Scratch interpreter which is explicitly not allowed on the App Store to begin w…

It should be possible to create a Scratch execution environment on top of Javascript/Safari. A cross compiler done correctly might run faster than the "native" Squeak VM.

But then the program is still not originally written in JavaScript, so no dice. I think a subset of JavaScript plus a nice library would be ok, though.

Re: Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

#20

Post by jjs » Thu, Apr 15, 2010, 7:38 PM UTC

rubinelli wrote: post #19

stcredzero wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be possible to create a Scratch execution environment on top of Javascript/Safari. A cross compiler done correctly might run faster than the "native" Squeak VM.

But then the program is still not originally written in JavaScript, so no dice. I think a subset of JavaScript plus a nice library would be ok, though.

But then the program is still not originally written in JavaScript, so no dice.

I believe he meant as a web app.