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Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

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Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#31

Post by jimmywanger »

logicallee wrote: post #15
jimmywanger wrote: post #3

I see parallels with medical school in tech hiring. They put the students through hell because that's what they had to go through, and they're rent seeking. In most other countries, doctors don't have an accreditation board. Most things are simple, and it doesn't require years of school to set a bone or put in some stitches, or even diagnose the flu or pneumonia. Similarly, you don't need a rockstar or ninja to write…

you put your conclusion first, and I must say I disagreed with it when I read your first couples of lines. Because medicine is actually hard - it's not that students have to "go through hell because that's what they had to go through." Medicine is really hard. I have a condition that affects my lifestyle, I have to learn about it, the more I learn the better my outcome. I'm not studying medicine and only "have to" le…

I don't disagree with medicine being hard. I'm not going to get into the difference difficulty between learning medicine or computer science.

I guess I should have mentioned my point first, which is that just like you don't need a star computer scientist to write an app for a restaurant, you don't need a doctor with all that training and theoretical knowledge to diagnose a sprained ankle.

I'm sorry about your condition, but that condition probably is fairly rare. How many of your other health issues couldn't be diagnosed by somebody with less training?

> however I think you are using an imprecise term "rent-seeking"

I don't see how I am. Can you please elucidate? You have to pass boards to practice medicine in the US, which requires a huge investment of time and money, and after you do that, you want to restrict supply so that you're in high demand. That way for the rest of your career you can coast on your laurels and keep collecting a paycheck.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#32

Post by nradov »

logicallee wrote: post #15
jimmywanger wrote: post #3

I see parallels with medical school in tech hiring. They put the students through hell because that's what they had to go through, and they're rent seeking. In most other countries, doctors don't have an accreditation board. Most things are simple, and it doesn't require years of school to set a bone or put in some stitches, or even diagnose the flu or pneumonia. Similarly, you don't need a rockstar or ninja to write…

you put your conclusion first, and I must say I disagreed with it when I read your first couples of lines. Because medicine is actually hard - it's not that students have to "go through hell because that's what they had to go through." Medicine is really hard. I have a condition that affects my lifestyle, I have to learn about it, the more I learn the better my outcome. I'm not studying medicine and only "have to" le…

There is room for clinicians who can diagnose pneumonia and other simple conditions: nurse practitioners and physician assistants. They don't need as much training as physicians.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#33

Post by wyager »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #19
drcross wrote: post #4

Many people want the status associated with being a doctor (of course some are pushed that direction by parents and some also just want to help people). When you have an abundance of people trying to get into an industry the profession have the ability to only choose the absolute pinnacle of talent. It's the same with being a pilot. Many of them work long hours in shit conditions for years hoping to get a decent rout…

How much longer until programming is the same way, now that we're pushing it to every kid and idolizing tech billionaires?

Seriously. There has been so much public effort into encouraging kids to be programmers, and I suspect the pendulum has already been pushed way too hard in the "too many programmers" direction.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#35

Post by wyager »

rifung wrote: post #5

> . Fortunately, others are speaking up as well. In online magazines and on NPR, medical students who have lived through suicide attempts, depression and other mental-health issues are standing up against this stigma. Medical schools are now training faculty to recognize risk factors for suicide and assuring students that seeking help isn’t a sign of weakness. I wonder whether and hope that mental illness will end up…

> especially when it comes to employment discrimination

I mean, a lot of mental illnesses actually have a legitimate negative effect on one's ability to be a productive worker. It wouldn't really make sense to make it illegal to discriminate against people with e.g. severe learning disabilities who can't read or write.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#36

Post by camerintinbun »

mmagin wrote: post #17

This is the important part, I think: "But one part of medical school culture has been especially hard to overcome: the stigma of mental illness. When they need help most, medical students in anguish rarely reach out. Students attribute this reluctance to seek care to fear of stigmatization by peers and to concerns over professional ramifications, particularly during applications for residency and licensing."

MD students aren't the only ones who have this issue either.

As a PhD student in a medical research program, I have talked to several others who face these same problems. I experience it in my own thoughts as well. 4 years in, I have no social life, never meet anyone, don't really have the drive to do anything outside of work anymore, etc... I never remembered being like this from my previous jobs, but overall, I genuinely feel sad that the things I look forward to most may never happen; A wife, kids, projects to do in my own house... Having always worked intense, physical jobs (at essentially minimum wage), I set out to get a much better job, benefit the lives of others, and ensure that I could comfortably support my goals in the future. In the process, I have completely lost who I was, let friendships fall apart, and feel the opportunities to mend them slip through my fingers.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#37

Post by erentz »

ReallyAnonymous wrote: post #21

medical school is humbling and difficult. Being a physician is difficult. I finished medical school in 1996 - didn't find it ridiculously hard, but then again, studying a lot was what I did in my youth. Now, I'm 47 years old, and work about 90 hours a week as a surgeon - I laugh when people say that we make too much. All I know is that 25 years ago, you had to be in the top 10% of your class to become a surgeon. When…

Do you really work 90 hours? That's 13 hours a day 7 days a week. How does that even work logistically when you need to eat, sleep, commute, do laundry, shop for food, and hopefully also see family or friends on occasion.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#38

Post by jimmywanger »

Lordarminius wrote: post #24
jimmywanger wrote: post #3

I see parallels with medical school in tech hiring. They put the students through hell because that's what they had to go through, and they're rent seeking. In most other countries, doctors don't have an accreditation board. Most things are simple, and it doesn't require years of school to set a bone or put in some stitches, or even diagnose the flu or pneumonia. Similarly, you don't need a rockstar or ninja to write…

Wait a minute... Im a doctor and I disagree with this. > They put the students through hell because that's what they had to go through... True. But the reason is that it toughens you up and winnows the wheat from the proverbial chaff. The forced marches through the wards at 2am in the morning prepare the budding doctor for the real world where he can be called upon as say, the sole doctor for miles in a rural area to…

> The forced marches through the wards at 2am in the morning prepare the budding doctor for the real world where he can be called upon as say, the sole doctor for miles in a rural area to attend to a mass casualty event.

When has that happened to you, or anybody you've known?

> There are many different diseases that present alike and even subgroups of the same diseases that have different management regimes.

Sure, how frequent is that?

My point is that we're training doctors like they have to be Navy Seals, equipped and prepared for every situation, whereas in real life, a grunt with 3 months paramedic training would be up for the task.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#39

Post by stephencanon »

chriskanan wrote: post #16

My wife finished medical school a bit over 4 years ago. While she thought medical school was brutal, it was comparatively easy compared to the challenges she faced in residency (she did her prelim at UCLA-Harbor and is now at Boston Children's hospital doing pediatric neurology). 80+ hour work weeks are the norm, and sometimes she works 14 days straight and has a pager that beeps throughout the night that she must re…

Yup. My wife is a neurosurgery resident. While she's on her research year right now, which is comparatively relaxed[1], prior to this she worked 5 years of 80+ hour weeks, including three stretches of 20+ consecutive days after another resident in her program left.

Looking back on medical school, she can't believe how ridiculously easy it was and how much free time she had.

[1] where "comparatively relaxed" still means "she works harder than anyone I know in tech".

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#40

Post by mahyarm »

lanius wrote: post #29
ReallyAnonymous wrote: post #21

medical school is humbling and difficult. Being a physician is difficult. I finished medical school in 1996 - didn't find it ridiculously hard, but then again, studying a lot was what I did in my youth. Now, I'm 47 years old, and work about 90 hours a week as a surgeon - I laugh when people say that we make too much. All I know is that 25 years ago, you had to be in the top 10% of your class to become a surgeon. When…

Interesting, I assumed that the field would become more selective over time. Or is it because just getting accepted to medical school itself is already extremely competitive?

I have heard that getting into medical school is a lot harder than it used to be too. It might be the reason why it's easier to be a surgeon once your in. I'm not a doctor or a med student, so take that with a grain of salt.
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