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Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#11

Post by cylinder »

The presence, or increase, of suicides does not mean that medical school is too "brutal." It could very well mean that young people are becoming worse at coping with stress. Or perhaps students feel more pressure because of their perceived consequences of their failures: basically no alternative career path that would provide the same standing as medicine, whereas in previous generations, med school dropouts could go on to dental / law / cushy corporate gig more easily. This could be one of the consequences of rising inequality.

I'm not disputing anything here, just want to discuss this logically. I've been in graduate school, and it wasn't that hard, and yet some of my peers would freak out constantly. And some wouldn't.

I will say that there's definitely a hazing culture across all professions in America that's completely unnecessary and inappropriate.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#13

Post by samfisher83 »

If you get into med school especially if you are Asian means you are pretty competitive. You basically need a 3.8 GPA and about 31 to get into an average med school. If you get into a specialty you are making close to 250-300k+ starting. Obviously its going to be competitive. Its basic economics.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#14

Post by sparky_z »

cylinder wrote: post #11

The presence, or increase, of suicides does not mean that medical school is too "brutal." It could very well mean that young people are becoming worse at coping with stress. Or perhaps students feel more pressure because of their perceived consequences of their failures: basically no alternative career path that would provide the same standing as medicine, whereas in previous generations, med school dropouts could go…

"I will say that there's definitely a hazing culture across all professions in America that's completely unnecessary and inappropriate."

I'm a structural engineer. I don't recall any sort of hazing culture, or even a single instance of hazing.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#15

Post by logicallee »

jimmywanger wrote: post #3

I see parallels with medical school in tech hiring. They put the students through hell because that's what they had to go through, and they're rent seeking. In most other countries, doctors don't have an accreditation board. Most things are simple, and it doesn't require years of school to set a bone or put in some stitches, or even diagnose the flu or pneumonia. Similarly, you don't need a rockstar or ninja to write…

you put your conclusion first, and I must say I disagreed with it when I read your first couples of lines. Because medicine is actually hard - it's not that students have to "go through hell because that's what they had to go through."

Medicine is really hard. I have a condition that affects my lifestyle, I have to learn about it, the more I learn the better my outcome. I'm not studying medicine and only "have to" learn one little part. All the same it is not easy. It would be as though all someone had to do in their entire life was (something specific) but computer science is so hard that this is not easy.

I would say medicine is harder than computer science. DNA is 650 megabytes, not every underlying process is understood, drugs and their interractions have to be learned with tons of difficulty, even after you specialize you have to understand the entire system.

But then I read the rest of your comment, and I must say - perhaps it is true that there is room for someone to "diagnose pneumonia" or something. Doctors are expert systems: but perhaps there is room for lesser expertise.

(A small aside - it is certainly true that the long required training artificially reduces supply of doctors in the united states - however I think you are using an imprecise term "rent-seeking" and should pick a more specific term from economics since I think you are technically misusing it.)

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#16

Post by chriskanan »

My wife finished medical school a bit over 4 years ago. While she thought medical school was brutal, it was comparatively easy compared to the challenges she faced in residency (she did her prelim at UCLA-Harbor and is now at Boston Children's hospital doing pediatric neurology). 80+ hour work weeks are the norm, and sometimes she works 14 days straight and has a pager that beeps throughout the night that she must respond to before going in again in the morning.

After one does complete residency, it does seem to get a lot easier based on observing some of her friends that didn't do fellowships, especially if the person takes a more clinical job. But after all of that effort, a lot of people become attending physicians where they are putting in just as many hours, if not more, because it is more prestigious. Those are the people that run the teaching hospitals, so it feels like there is a lot of "I survived and it made me a better physician, you can too" mentality.

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#17

Post by mmagin »

This is the important part, I think:

"But one part of medical school culture has been especially hard to overcome: the stigma of mental illness. When they need help most, medical students in anguish rarely reach out. Students attribute this reluctance to seek care to fear of stigmatization by peers and to concerns over professional ramifications, particularly during applications for residency and licensing."

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#18

Post by jimmywanger »

ejstronge wrote: post #6
jimmywanger wrote: post #3

I see parallels with medical school in tech hiring. They put the students through hell because that's what they had to go through, and they're rent seeking. In most other countries, doctors don't have an accreditation board. Most things are simple, and it doesn't require years of school to set a bone or put in some stitches, or even diagnose the flu or pneumonia. Similarly, you don't need a rockstar or ninja to write…

Which are the countries where doctors don't have an accreditation board? The history of physicians controlling who is allowed to join their ranks goes back centuries, at the very least.

In the US, medications are controlled through doctors.

In most of Latin America (the countries I've been to), the pharmacists were the first source of triage.

"Pooping too much? Here, take this pill. Oh wait, there's blood in there? You should probably go see somebody more informed."

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#19

Post by PhasmaFelis »

drcross wrote: post #4

Many people want the status associated with being a doctor (of course some are pushed that direction by parents and some also just want to help people). When you have an abundance of people trying to get into an industry the profession have the ability to only choose the absolute pinnacle of talent. It's the same with being a pilot. Many of them work long hours in shit conditions for years hoping to get a decent rout…

How much longer until programming is the same way, now that we're pushing it to every kid and idolizing tech billionaires?

Re: Medical school can be brutal, and it’s making many of us suicidal

#20

Post by Swizec »

cloudjacker wrote: post #8
rifung wrote: post #5

> . Fortunately, others are speaking up as well. In online magazines and on NPR, medical students who have lived through suicide attempts, depression and other mental-health issues are standing up against this stigma. Medical schools are now training faculty to recognize risk factors for suicide and assuring students that seeking help isn’t a sign of weakness. I wonder whether and hope that mental illness will end up…

San Francisco is a sanctuary city for counterculture. As more counterculture becomes acceptable outside of sanctuary cities, more marginalized people remain or come to the sanctuary cities partly due the history of catering to marginalized people. I think that would be a decent way for you to see a possible outcome in that field too in order to create a conclusion.

> San Francisco is a sanctuary city for counterculture.

As long as your type of counterculture doesn't involve the perceived potential of underperforming. Then you're out. Because meritocracy and stuff.

Mental illness is almost always perceived as "Oh shit, this person isn't gonna be a top performer"

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