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Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

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Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#71

Post by fecak »

mattmanser wrote: post #23
fecak wrote: post #10

As the moderator of a Reddit sub focused on comp sci careers, I don't think the open office is an issue for junior level developers. The worship of what we in that sub call the big 4 (some combo of Google, Facebook, Apple (or Microsoft), Amazon) is pretty much what you hear from every college senior, and I've never heard anyone even mention this as a negative. Of course these are mostly people who haven't had much ex…

I don't get your point? Like you say, a bunch of people who have never worked in an open plan office obviously won't complain about it, nor will they realize it's something they should filter by. They haven't experienced the problem yet. Take renting a flat. I now know to avoid everywhere with storage heaters, just like I avoid places with single glazing and I also now know I should check the shower water pressure. I…

My point was that if the open office plan is scaring anyone away, it hasn't yet (in my experience) impacted junior developers who are still quite enthusiastic about Facebook. Facebook doesn't only hire experienced developers, and even their experienced hires may not have a formed opinion on open office environments.

There are plenty of people who are biased about things (like an open office environment) they haven't personally experienced, yet hold their bias based on hearing about the experiences of others.

I've never been in an airplane crash, and I'm pretty sure I never want to be in an airplane crash. I don't need to personally have that experience to have a bias against it.

If you didn't know about storage heaters or single glazing before renting a flat, there are probably a number of ways you could have discovered those things without having to experience them directly. It certainly wouldn't require "magic" as you say.

If a bias against open offices is happening, it doesn't seem to be impacting our newest industry entrants yet.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#72

Post by mi100hael »

fsloth wrote: post #9

Is there anyone here who likes open offices more than a floorplan divised into smaller rooms? I ask because I've worked in an open office setting as a developer for years (the place is otherwise nice) and thoroughly despise it as a workspace. Yet some people don't seem to mind it. I don't mind serendipity. The problem is I serendiptously overhear everyones discussion which is incredibly disruptive for deep work. Fact…

I despise it as a workspace as well. Some people don't mind as much, but I haven't met anyone that's openly enthusiastic about it.

I got a pair of Etymotic In-Ear Headphones[0] which have kept me sane for several years now. They have interchangeable tips with a NRR on-par with foam plugs. Worth every penny in an open office.

[0]http://www.etymotic.com/consumer/headset-earphones/hf3.html

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#74

Post by fecak »

go_go_ wrote: post #15
fecak wrote: post #10

As the moderator of a Reddit sub focused on comp sci careers, I don't think the open office is an issue for junior level developers. The worship of what we in that sub call the big 4 (some combo of Google, Facebook, Apple (or Microsoft), Amazon) is pretty much what you hear from every college senior, and I've never heard anyone even mention this as a negative. Of course these are mostly people who haven't had much ex…

I think some of it may also come with the amount of guidance and mentoring those people require. Early in your career, the best thing for you to do is to acquire knowledge -- not raw output. The open office allows for knowledge sharing and eavesdropping in ways closed offices do not. However, as you progress you require less 1:1 time with people and can work independently given a set of goals and general architecture…

Frankly, when it comes to those big 4 companies, I think the perceived value of having that name on the resume will probably overshadow any perceived shortcomings in any of the environments.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#75

Post by pkaye »

For most of my career I worked at companies with full size cubicles and was okay with it. My current employer started with an open office structure. We are a fairly small group of developers so things were not so noisy and it was easier to communicate. But then I am getting old now and taking daily medicines for chronic issues. It was hard getting the privacy to take my medicines. We've now switched to full cubicles with the front at half height so this is a better blend of openness and privacy.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#76

Post by vonmoltke »

schiang wrote: post #34
caleblloyd wrote: post #27

I worked for a year at IBM's RTP campus. Everyone had their own dimly lit cube with 5-foot walls, no natural daylight, and white noise playing over speakers to drown out conversation. The depressing undertone of the office was part of what pushed me to quit. My team at my present job works in an open setting with 8 people in the room and windows with natural daylight. It's quiet enough to focus but gives us the oppor…

Team sized rooms are definitely the way to go. You can avoid conversation from other teams that you don't care about. When there is a conversation in the room, it's probably related to what you're doing so it's not necessarily distracting you. I worked in a room with just my team and it worked out great. We were able to have discussions and draw stuff on white boards on the wall without distracting anyone else. It al…

This probably works great if you have evenly-sized, relatively stable teams. The place I just left has teams that ranged from just me to the entire eight-persob company, and the teams could change on a month-to-month basis. In fact, it wasn't unusual to be working on two or three projects simultaneously.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#77

Post by pkaye »

caleblloyd wrote: post #27

I worked for a year at IBM's RTP campus. Everyone had their own dimly lit cube with 5-foot walls, no natural daylight, and white noise playing over speakers to drown out conversation. The depressing undertone of the office was part of what pushed me to quit. My team at my present job works in an open setting with 8 people in the room and windows with natural daylight. It's quiet enough to focus but gives us the oppor…

Team sized rooms sound good but what happens with a few more people are added and there is no room to easily expand?

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#78

Post by st3v3r »

jowiar wrote: post #36
fatlasp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought open offices became popular because it was literally the cheapest set up for facilities. For startups it worked because all you had to buy was desks. Somehow that got spun in to 'open offices are so sexy!' Open offices are horrible for productivity imo. Moved to a job with an office and it is so. much. better.

The efficiency gain with open offices is that, for high-growth companies -- or ones that are uncertain about their long-term size, it's pretty easy to shuffle furniture around to squeeze in more people. When walls and doors get involved, you're committing to "each person gets X sq. ft", for a company that may grow from x to 2x employees. That said, they're a disaster for productivity.

And that possibility is worth more than letting people get work done? I mean, if people don't get enough work done, you're never going to get to the point where you need to shuffle things around.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#79

Post by jnbiche »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #28
fatlasp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought open offices became popular because it was literally the cheapest set up for facilities. For startups it worked because all you had to buy was desks. Somehow that got spun in to 'open offices are so sexy!' Open offices are horrible for productivity imo. Moved to a job with an office and it is so. much. better.

That's why we have them... we literally can't afford to give everyone (or anyone for that matter) a private office.

> That's why we have them... we literally can't afford to give everyone (or anyone for that matter) a private office.

You know, if a prospective employer was straight up with me about that, I'd give it serious consideration. I can understand that not every company can afford an endless supply of private offices in urban areas (although obviously this is not the case with companies like FB).

What bugs me the most about the open office fetish is how it causes productivity to plummet for most developers, at the same time the leadership is spouting off on how great it is for productivity. I mean, as that goofy reality judge said, don't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#80

Post by st3v3r »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #28
fatlasp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought open offices became popular because it was literally the cheapest set up for facilities. For startups it worked because all you had to buy was desks. Somehow that got spun in to 'open offices are so sexy!' Open offices are horrible for productivity imo. Moved to a job with an office and it is so. much. better.

That's why we have them... we literally can't afford to give everyone (or anyone for that matter) a private office.

I don't buy that for a second. With what gets spent on salaries, the cost of offices is a drop in the bucket.
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