Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#41

Post by falcolas » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:38 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #28

fatlasp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought open offices became popular because it was literally the cheapest set up for facilities. For startups it worked because all you had to buy was desks. Somehow that got spun in to 'open offices are so sexy!' Open offices are horrible for productivity imo. Moved to a job with an office and it is so. much. better.

That's why we have them... we literally can't afford to give everyone (or anyone for that matter) a private office.

The amortized cost of building and furnishing a private office, when compared to the salary you are paying that programmer, is miniscule.

A measly additional 60 square feet of floor space, 10-20 grand in construction costs, and the same desk/chairs, amortized over 5 or so years.

Even building separate rooms for groups of programmers would provide for great gains at low costs.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#42

Post by formatjam » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:38 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #9

Is there anyone here who likes open offices more than a floorplan divised into smaller rooms? I ask because I've worked in an open office setting as a developer for years (the place is otherwise nice) and thoroughly despise it as a workspace. Yet some people don't seem to mind it. I don't mind serendipity. The problem is I serendiptously overhear everyones discussion which is incredibly disruptive for deep work. Fact…

I genuinely enjoy working in open office after working in both settings to the point that I would never never work in a company that is not open office aganin. All the noise points are valid here though. For me personally, I like it because:

- Better/Faster communications. I can ask and answer questions on the spots vs. scheduling a meeting. This is gaming changing. For the same type of question, I can get answered within 10 mins vs more than 1 day. This is a HUGE productivity boost.

- Better team culture. Sitting next to each other make the team much closer. More likely to go to lunch/dinner, hang out, and become friends outside of work. This will give people empathy to each other and more willingly to help/unblock you.

For the noise issues, I get around it by blocking heads down time in my schedule and find a quiet corner in a office.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#43

Post by chris_7 » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:38 PM UTC

dilap wrote: post #13

An open office wouldn't be so bad if library-like codes of silence were enforced.

Yep. Work in an office with communal[1] music, it's really bad for focus. I would say that this policy likely loses us money.

[1] controlled by a clique, really

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#44

Post by Declanomous » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:39 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #28

fatlasp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought open offices became popular because it was literally the cheapest set up for facilities. For startups it worked because all you had to buy was desks. Somehow that got spun in to 'open offices are so sexy!' Open offices are horrible for productivity imo. Moved to a job with an office and it is so. much. better.

That's why we have them... we literally can't afford to give everyone (or anyone for that matter) a private office.

Epic Systems has a private office for each of their 9,000+ employees. Their campus is outside Madison, WI, so it's cheaper to do that there then it would be elsewhere. Private offices don't have to be large. I'm sure the money for private offices would appear if companies were sufficiently motivated to provide them.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#45

Post by chris_7 » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:39 PM UTC

Nav_Panel wrote: post #40

dilap wrote: post #13

An open office wouldn't be so bad if library-like codes of silence were enforced.

Even a little respect would go a long way. I don't mind people having conversations, but loud laughter from the team across the way can really get on my nerves. And don't even get me started on phones ringing...

I strongly mind people having conversations about anything that is not work-related. If you want to talk about Game of Thrones or the latest sportsball game, take it outside.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#46

Post by jowiar » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

thurn wrote: post #30

fsloth wrote: post #9

Is there anyone here who likes open offices more than a floorplan divised into smaller rooms? I ask because I've worked in an open office setting as a developer for years (the place is otherwise nice) and thoroughly despise it as a workspace. Yet some people don't seem to mind it. I don't mind serendipity. The problem is I serendiptously overhear everyones discussion which is incredibly disruptive for deep work. Fact…

I prefer open offices. You get a pretty significant echo chamber effect on articles like this because people who don't like it turn out to comment. Personally, I have no difficulty with noise (I prefer working in coffee shops to at home), and being able to easily start a design discussion with 4 or 5 engineers when necessary is extremely valuable. I totally get why some people don't like it though.

"Being able to easily start a design discussion with 4 or 5 engineers" means "easily break 4 or 5 engineers out of their flow" along with "easily create a distraction for the other 15 engineers within earshot of the easily-started discussion".

I'm fine with coffee shops over home (and did the same in college), but coffeeshop noise is "white noise" -- whirring espresso grinders, a blur of conversations between people I don't know about things that aren't going to activate my distraction monkey.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#47

Post by renaudg » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:41 PM UTC

Facebook is paying 40-50 percent more than other places, which is usually a sign developers don’t want to work there.

More likely a sign of a high hiring bar and corresponding paycheck.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#48

Post by cousin_it » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:41 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #9

Is there anyone here who likes open offices more than a floorplan divised into smaller rooms? I ask because I've worked in an open office setting as a developer for years (the place is otherwise nice) and thoroughly despise it as a workspace. Yet some people don't seem to mind it. I don't mind serendipity. The problem is I serendiptously overhear everyones discussion which is incredibly disruptive for deep work. Fact…

I'm a developer who recently moved from a large open space to a small quiet room with just a handful of people. To me it feels like a big downgrade. I loved the constant chatter in the open space, and I was much more aware of what the whole team is concerned with. I felt that it was very important for setting my work priorities right. Meetings and emails are much more restrictive than just sitting next to everyone whose work interacts with mine. And it didn't impede my coding at all, I could always put on some noise (SimplyRain) and tune out.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#49

Post by rdtsc » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:42 PM UTC

DougN7 wrote: post #4

Open offices were developed by people who don't have to really concentrate for their job. They're awful for developers.

In addition open offices:

* Are usually cheaper

* Look good in photo ops and publicity: "Look how much everyone is working together _all the time_. So much activity happening! We are not like those places with loners and antisocial people hiding in cubicles"

* Cubicles were used to be associated with boring, slow bureaucratic offices.

Those 4 things conspire to make them more popular. I think it is simpler a function of them being cheaper in general and everything else is just justification. But in case Facebook, can't imagine they don't have the money...

Well I am glad this is changing though. There seems to be a backlash against open offices lately.

Re: Is Facebook’s Massive Open Office Scaring Away Developers?

#50

Post by falcolas » Mon, Oct 10, 2016, 4:42 PM UTC

nashashmi wrote: post #14

DougN7 wrote: post #4

Open offices were developed by people who don't have to really concentrate for their job. They're awful for developers.

People go to cafes to work. It is not closed cubicles there. And I think they are able to concentrate more. I know for one that I can.

Cafes offer an odd sort of privacy since none of the conversations mean anything to you - effectively white noise - so they're easy to filter out. In an open office, every conversation may apply to you at any point during the conversation, requiring conscious effort to monitor and filter the conversation.