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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

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Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#431

Post by grecy »

stephenr wrote: post #360
grecy wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She had literally never heard of nor understood the concept of a blind spot. I've done a good amount of driving in the undeveloped and developing world (40k miles AK->Argentina, now 10k miles in West Africa, going to do about 80k) Blindspots are not considered here. Driving is much more fluid, and you really only need to watch what is happening in front of you. After all, the car behind/beside you can see you much…

> It really is a different way of thinking, and it's immensely impressive that everyone is paying enough attention to make it work really well (Traffic accidents are not common, and the driving conditions are so, so much more hectic than the developed world.) Thailand has all that you mentioned, as well as novel things like vehicles driving the wrong way on the hard shoulder on divided highways. Thailand is #2 behind…

I should have clarified and said traffic accidents in towns and cities are not common.

I'd be willing to bet if you removed all the accidents and deaths on the highways (where people drive like demented so-and-sos) it's not more dangerous than the good ol usa

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#432

Post by dpark »

michael_h wrote: post #404
mcv wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, do people in the US not use professional driving instructors in modified instruction cars? Doesn't that cause a lot of accidents?

It is not mandatory in every state, I believe. However, even when not required, it is very common to use professional driving instructors with modified cars.

This is very uncommon in the United States. Probably 99% of driver training in the US is driving a family car with mom or dad in the passenger seat. Most people get very little and often no professional instruction.

Certainly, when receiving professional instruction, the modified car with at least an extra brake is typical. It's just that most people never get much of this instruction.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#433

Post by johanvts »

mcv wrote: post #313
johanvts wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is simply not true, the helmet will be the first part of you head that touch the ground in almost any fall. Especially if you are using one of the more covering "skate" helmets. If you get hit by a car head on the helmet will also most likely be the first part of you head to hit the car. I would reverse your statement and say the helmet will only not protect your head if you fall at a horisontal, actually upward…

> That is simply not true, the helmet will be the first part of you head that touch the ground in almost any fall. Citation needed. From both personal experience and research I've seen about this, the head is rarely the first part to hit the ground. My brother did have a rare accident as a kid where his head hit the ground first and he had a concussion, but that's an exception. And it's generally not hitting the grou…

What I'm trying to say is that: If your head hits the ground (or anything hard) in an accident Then the helmet is likely to help. But I agree that most small accidents will not include your head hitting anything. Humans are pretty good at protecting their head per reflex. However I disagree that it is not dangerous when it happens. Just imagine even from standing completely still if you would jump into the air and then hit the ground head first. You would be pretty wrecked, doing it a 10 or 20 km/h wouldn't help.

>It's generally not hitting the ground that is the dangerous part in traffic accidents. Helmets don't do anything useful is the vast majority of accidents.

Citation needed. Just like in the original comment. It would be great if there was a comprehensive study, but it seems for now people will have to make their own estimates of the risks and benefits. I always wear a helmet, and encourage others to do the same. Others don't and that's their own choice.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#434

Post by mrsuprawsm »

mtrimpe wrote: post #230
kvz wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the case anymore since ~5 years. The only motorized vehicels alllowed are those that cant travel fasher than 25km/h (bike speed)

If you live in Amsterdam you'd be hard pressed to find more than one scooter a month that's going under 25km/h. Amsterdam is also pushing very hard to get an exception to be able to force them onto the street though.

Here in Rotterdam they've added signs to the entrances to _all_ the bike lanes in the centre mentioning that scooters/motorbikes should be in the street.

("Herinnering: op rijbaan", example here: http://www.rotterdam.nl/Clusters/Stadsontwikkeling/Document%...)

Although I think that it's illegal for them to ride in the bike lanes (or over 25km/h? or both?), they still do it

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#435

Post by phpnode »

jacquesm wrote: post #292
lmm wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? A 60 year old lady would be safer in the main traffic lanes than in the gutter, for exactly the same reasons as anyone else - more visible from behind, more control over when cars pass them, no risk of hitting a car door etc.

Well, where I live a few million of those elderly lady cyclists (including my mom, 73, makes 100 Km trips on her bike) have reached that age simply because they know not to mix themselves with traffic faster than theirs. Living in a country where traffic has been educated to give cyclists room most definitely helps but I'd hate to see our older generation decimated because they decided to seek 'the middle of the road…

> I find it very interesting that commenters from countries where cycling is decidedly unsafe are going to lecture those from countries where the predominant mode of transportation is the bicycle on safe cycling practices

This is exactly the point though. The guidelines that apply in the Netherlands are different to the guidelines in, say, the UK, precisely because the two countries have very different attitudes towards cycling. In the Netherlands you have an environment where cycling is extremely common, motorists are very used to sharing the roads and in fact most motorists are also cyclists themselves. This dramatically reduces the sort of us vs them conflicts between cyclists and motorists that seem so common in other countries. Different types of road user are seen more or less equally and show each other a level of respect that is just about unheard of elsewhere. In such an environment, hogging the lane seems unnecessarily aggressive because you simply don't need to do it.

In the UK, USA and just about everywhere else motorists are simply not used to driving close to cyclists. They don't know how much space to leave, they don't know how to pass them safely, it's actually socially acceptable to be aggressive towards cyclists but most of all, motorists are not on the lookout for cyclists, they are not expecting them. In this kind of environment the cyclist's number one priority is to make themselves seen and that's why being assertive is so important.

If you're in the middle of the lane by default the car behind you might be annoyed but at least they are likely to see you, and when you've been seen you can then move closer to the kerb to allow them to pass you safely. This puts the cyclist in control in a situation where they'd normally be at the mercy of motorists.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#436

Post by criddell »

tluyben2 wrote: post #136
djsumdog wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of bicycles in The Netherlands is absolutely surreal. Both in major cities and out in the suburbs, bicycles are everywhere. I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Large cities in Germany or the UK or anywhere else I've seen cannot compare to the magnitude of people on bicycles in The Netherlands.

> I also find it interesting the Dutch rarely ever wear helmets. Good or bad; I am Dutch and I would confidently say that all people I know would never ride a bike again if they have to wear those silly helmets. More likely if it would be mandatory, they just would refuse and not do it, but if largely enforced they would just not use bikes anymore.

> people I know would never ride a bike again if they have to wear those silly helmets

Why not? You make it sound like Dutch aren't very committed to cycling.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#437

Post by TulliusCicero »

trothamel wrote: post #80
msandford wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyclists are already second class citizens on the roads. People who ride bikes are upset about this and would prefer not to become third or fourth class. It's also very frustrating to have to assume everyone is so ignorant that they wouldn't mind accidentally killing you for the sake of saving a second or two. I completely agree that being aggressively paranoid is the way to stay alive. But agreeing that it is the sm…

Cyclists _are_ second class citizens on the roads. In 2009, the latest year I can find data for, cars were responsible for 3,298 billion person miles, 88.4% of person miles travelled. Bikes were responsible for a little under 9 billion, or .2%. http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/publications/passenger_travel_20...

I, for one, am shocked that a mode of transportation that is treated either as a toy or with contempt is rarely used. Who could have ever predicted such a thing?

Now look at a country where bikes are treated with roughly equal seriousness as cars, like the Netherlands, and tell me how many trips and how far bikes went.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#438

Post by lucb1e »

qb45 wrote: post #421
lucb1e wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure... I mean, I've had bugs fly in before but nothing big and bad. Thinking about it now (in a logical state of mind) I would say I'd just press my eyes tightly closed instinctively and press both brakes as hard as I can. If it takes more than a second or two to stop, I think I'd realize I can open one eye to see traffic (if I'm in traffic). But in a panic, there is no way to tell whether I'd do that. It ju…

> I would say I'd just press my eyes tightly closed instinctively and press both brakes as hard as I can . You probably don't have much experience if you write things like that :)

Experience with what, biking or flying stuff in eyes? In the latter case you might be right, which is one of the reasons nobody wears goggles while biking (it doesn't happen that often). In the former case you're wrong about me.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#439

Post by hx87 »

ralfn wrote: post #402
saiya-jin wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal evidence - i never wore helmet when growing up, nobody did. once had an accident on small bmx bike when I fell head first on tarmac, but didn't land on head and apart from scratches and being shaken all good (if parents only knew...). few years ago decided to buy new cross country (ie all-rounder) one, lightweight and blazing fast for what it is. Decided to go for a helmet for the first time. After 2 weeks,…

This focus on helmets is ridiculous, because you only have to types of bikes: 1. Death traps 2. Dutch bikes You want less people to die in traffic while riding a bike? Don't make a helmet mandatory. Make the dutch bike mandatory. Your bike needs to be heavy. You need to sit up straight. And if you stretch your legs you have to stand. Whenever i see the images of americans on rice bikes and mountain bikes in NYC, i to…

The drivetrain matters too--I suspect many American bicyclists blow through red lights and generally don't respect road rules because with fixed/single speed bikes, it takes enormous effort to get started from a standstill, and with derailleurs it's impossible to downshift from a standstill (i.e. when you make a quick stop). If hub gears were standard, bicyclists wouldn't have as much reason to ignore signals.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#440

Post by gambiting »

kristofferR wrote: post #296
tinco wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is important in how it shows biking is totally different in The Netherlands. The first type of bike most non-Dutch think of when they hear 'bicycle', where the rider sits hunched forward poised to race is not even considered a regular bike here. If you go faster than 15mph you are basically considered to be comparable to a moped and doing it without a helmet is frowned upon even here. When you are not in…

> "When you are not in The Netherlands you should most definitely wear a helmet no matter what kind of bike." Why? It's actually not statistically safer.

I think those statistics are very very very heavily skewed and should be ignored. If you have a car accident, 99% of the time, it gets recorded. If you have a bike accident, if the police is not involved, where are you going to report it? To whom? Therefore, the only cases that do get reported are collisions with vehicles, or cases severe enough that cyclist gets taken to hospital - and in those cases, the situation is already bad, even if they wore a helmet.

My point is - situations where a helmet has saved a life are rarely recorded, so they don't show up in any sort of statistic(even I had an accident where I flew across the handlebars, hit my head directly on the edge of a curb, helmet split in half, and I was fine - yet this wasn't recorded anywhere. It does not exist in any sort of statistic, despite - very clearly - saving my life).

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