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The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

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Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#401
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And the physics of falling off your bike are not that different and the ground is about as hard in Canada as in Netherlands. You would think that would be true, but no. 1. The ground in Holland is flat. 2. The bike is heavy. 3. The bike is the type where you are sitting up (not leaning forward like a race bike). So, when a dutch person bikes they are going no faster than 15 km/h. When they stretch their legs they ar…

A guy I saw a few days ago got one of those heavy chain-type locks in his frontwheel while riding his bike a few days ago. Of course, his bike stopped instantly. He was carrying a painting, so driving with one hand. Amazingly, he didn't even fall to the ground. It really takes a lot of effort to land on the top of your head; I imagine that being hit or run over by a car causes way, way more serious accidents.

It helps that our bikes are heavy and you sit up straight.

The rest of the world keeps talking about helmets, even though they ride complete death traps. Their mountain bikes and race bikes. Off course you are going to die riding one of those in NYC.

I would advise them to just outlaw those bikes, instead of making/keeping helmets mandatory.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "When you are not in The Netherlands you should most definitely wear a helmet no matter what kind of bike." Why? It's actually not statistically safer.

Anecdotal evidence - i never wore helmet when growing up, nobody did. once had an accident on small bmx bike when I fell head first on tarmac, but didn't land on head and apart from scratches and being shaken all good (if parents only knew...). few years ago decided to buy new cross country (ie all-rounder) one, lightweight and blazing fast for what it is. Decided to go for a helmet for the first time. After 2 weeks,…

This focus on helmets is ridiculous, because you only have to types of bikes:

1. Death traps

2. Dutch bikes

You want less people to die in traffic while riding a bike? Don't make a helmet mandatory. Make the dutch bike mandatory. Your bike needs to be heavy. You need to sit up straight. And if you stretch your legs you have to stand.

Whenever i see the images of americans on rice bikes and mountain bikes in NYC, i too think it looks incredibly dangerous.

If i would hit a door with a dutch bike, i wouldn't fall, i would just stand still. And the door will likely be a bit broken.

It's not about the helmets. Its about the bike design.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#403
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was also this study from a university in Utrecht showing that [in the Netherlands] cyclists wearing helmets are more careless and cause more accidents, nullifying any safety benefit.. Are there any links in English to that study? Someone said only people racing (or with racing bikes) trend to wear helmet in Netherlands. Knowing that it feels like that study confuses correlation with causation, but a universit…

But I am pretty sure you don't live in Netherlands. Safety gear depends on the people around you too. :)

Yeah, I guess you've got a good point there. Also, the infrastructures to cycle are not as good here as in The Netherlands.

I just think, based on people's comments, that there's some silly stigma associated to the helmets like "they're ugly" or "you look silly with it". I've only started cycling again a few years ago, after a childhood of cycling every day without any safety gear; it was hard at first to make myself comfortable with the idea of wearing a helmet. Some time later it just feels natural and I actually get worried when I see people without helmet.

It seems to be something similar to the seat belt. It took time for people to get used to it and nowadays I still see that problem in some countries (usually with old people in small towns).

Edit: Typos. Lack of coffee. Lack of sleep.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#404
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also getting taught by amateurs, that just isn't a thing in the Netherlands. You learn to drive in a modified car (extra set of brakes, extra mirrors) with a qualified instructor next to you.

Wait, do people in the US not use professional driving instructors in modified instruction cars? Doesn't that cause a lot of accidents?

It is not mandatory in every state, I believe. However, even when not required, it is very common to use professional driving instructors with modified cars.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#405

It is true that getting doored is not part of the Dutch vocabulary as it is not something that happens often. But there are more reasons than grabbing the handle with the opposite hand. A non extensive list: 1) Dutch car drivers all have been bicyclist before they get their driver license, everyday to school more than an hour being nothing being frowned on. 2) Major transit bike routes have separate bike lanes, the t…

When you make a long list like that, the human intuitive norm is to start by assigning a roughly equal responsibility for each of them. However, it is rare to encounter a situation where some effect is obtained by 10 distinct factors all providing an equal contribution. (Think about it from an entropic point of view; that is one very specific configuration of contributions, vs. all the others in which they are not balanced.)

So the relevant question is "Of all the differences, which are the relevant ones?" If the "Dutch reach" is, say, 75% of the contribution, it's worth bringing over. [1] If it's 3%, it not worth worrying about at a governmental scale, as the costs of getting everyone to do it are not zero, and the benefits need to outweigh the costs. (You are free to adopt it; the costs for a person are negligible and the possible benefit of "not dooring a biker" are substantial both to you and the biker in question. But what you should do is a different question than what the government should do.)

In this sort of situation, listing out all the possible reasons and then leaving people to intuitively apply equal responsibilities is a great way to ensure that nothing happens. (I mean, you can actually use that as a technique next time you're in a meeting proposing that something be done that you don't want done; just exhaustively enumerate all the things that would be necessary, watch the idea wither as people intuitively assign incorrectly-large values to every little task if you do it right. You didn't hear this from me though. (I haven't done it, but have been on the receiving end.)) Bringing over one practice at a time in order of effectiveness is something that can happen. Implicitly insisting that we adopt 10 cultural practices all at once, some of which are major changes, just causes fatigue and people to just give up and walk away, and nothing changes.

[1]: Albeit possibly with a different name. It probably would actually be good marketing in the end to leave the name sounding vaguely like a sexual thing as it would get people's attention and generate some good buzz, but I doubt our bureaucracy would go in for that approach.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#406
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was also this study from a university in Utrecht showing that [in the Netherlands] cyclists wearing helmets are more careless and cause more accidents, nullifying any safety benefit.. Are there any links in English to that study? Someone said only people racing (or with racing bikes) trend to wear helmet in Netherlands. Knowing that it feels like that study confuses correlation with causation, but a universit…

There's an article here implying drivers cut closer when they wear helmets http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10866273/Cycle-h...

Nice link, thanks. That seems to be another education issue: Drivers think cyclists with helmets are more experienced, so they don't feel the need to leave as much room as they do with "less experienced" cyclists.

It is an interesting point and I didn't know about it.

Almost unrelated, but I've found this part of the article funny - shows how we have to be careful with grand headlines and look at the article itself:

> Henry Marsh, who works at St George’s Hospital in Tooting, London, said that many of his patients who have been involved in bike accidents have been wearing helmets that were ‘too flimsy’ to be beneficial.

Well, no shit Sherlock. The cases where the helmet helped don't end up in your hands. Guy's a neurosurgeon.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#407
I know this would be a lot harder, but I think the best solution would be some city redesign where we separated bike and automobile routes, or at least minimized the places where they are together.

The Dutch reach _is_ clever, but it takes a lot of retraining of existing motorists, so it will take concerted awareness raising and probably a fairly long time-frame to take effect here.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#408
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "When you are not in The Netherlands you should most definitely wear a helmet no matter what kind of bike." Why? It's actually not statistically safer.

* Citation needed

http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html https://www.cnet.com/news/brain-surgeon-theres-no-point-wear...

But more relevant to the Dutch situation: https://vvn.nl/dossier/fietshelm http://www.fietsersbond.nl/de-feiten/verkeer-en-veiligheid/f...

The main takeaway is that nobody in Netherland wants helmets to be mandatory. The positive effects of a helmet are insufficiently proven, and the negative effects of making helmets mandatory seem not worth the risk. Some organizations do recommend helmets for children between 10 and 14, which seems to be the group that's most likely to benefit from them.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#409
post #239

Bullshit. I'm Dutch, never heard of or exercised this "Dutch Reach" behaviour and I was not tested for it when getting my driver's license. Instead, you just look around and in your mirrors to see if other traffic is coming before blindly and like an asshole opening your door, it doesn't matter how you open the door after you became aware of what is going on around you. I call this behaviour the "Dutch Common Sense".

Yeh, as an American driver I don't know how people open their doors in the city WITHOUT looking first.

In rural areas where bikers ride on the sidewalk and are not super common, sure, but I can't remember a time driving in a city where I was NOT super paranoid about hitting a car or a cyclist or a pedestrian with my door.

Re: The Dutch Reach: Clever Workaround to Keep Cyclists from Getting “Doored”

#410
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that strange? Are you confident you'll stay completely composed and in control with a live bug in your eye? I lost control while trying to get the source of pain in my eye to stop.

I'm not sure... I mean, I've had bugs fly in before but nothing big and bad. Thinking about it now (in a logical state of mind) I would say I'd just press my eyes tightly closed instinctively and press both brakes as hard as I can. If it takes more than a second or two to stop, I think I'd realize I can open one eye to see traffic (if I'm in traffic). But in a panic, there is no way to tell whether I'd do that. It ju…

I haven't had bugs in my eyes ever since I got glasses, but as a kid, I do remember the occasional bug in my eye. Never lead to a crash, though.

I think the most important thing is to come to a stop before trying to clear bugs from your eyes. Which remind me of my biggest bike crash: cleaning ice off my glasses on an icy bike path. I knew it was that slippery, but somehow I'd forgotten because everything was going so well. But obviously low speed, so no big deal.

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