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A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

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Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#301
post #184
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A real barrier to a decentralised web is the difficulty of installing software on a server. Also, economies of scale. If people used a decentralized service called "UnFaceBook", the total cost of servers, administration, etc. would dwarf the cost of Facebook running their data centres. From a business perspective, it's just not feasible. Hmm... perhaps everyone running their own systems is, in fact, doable. Most pe…

Economics and scale can be a strange beast. The sum of Amazon EC2 + Google Cloud + Digital Ocean + Rackspace +... is about 10,000,000 servers, which makes... 1 server per 7,000 inhabitants on Earth. Have you ever looked at it this way? And that's only for public cloud, not including Facebook, Google's internal servers, Apple's infrastructure, ISPs, and servers hosted by all companies. So to provide all IT services to…

> So where does all this processing power go?

Security, redundancy and isolation. Often times you have an extra server not because you need the processing power, but to separate things for security reasons, to provide failover and to avoid noisy neighbors.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#302

I think that article is missing one important thing. "Web 3.0" needs a killer app! Something which is not simple to duplicate in current centralized web and still It's very attractive to web users.

It still pains me to see that Mozilla Persona failed.

It was terrible to see that happen, but it looks like getting out of silos built by the likes of Google, Facebook, etc., is becoming more difficult with time.

If something has to be built, it has to be done by common people. There's no point looking at large corporates for these.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#303

It seems to me that one significant barrier is that most people don't have a static IP. If we can move to IPv6, will ISPs start issuing static IPs for everyone by default?

A static IP brings along privacy and tracking concerns when public facing servers/services are mixed with personal browsing and use. Even if ISPs are handing out IPv6 addresses, it would be better for people to get addresses that do change often or on demand.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#304

If Twitter led the charge to decentralize the web, starting with their chief product, I believe the company would be worth 10-100x more than it is now (i.e., a market capitalization between $100B and $1T).

Can you explain what they could do or how they would do it?

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. E.g. centralized Snapchat has a multi-billion market value based on marketing of ephemeral messaging and a fun UX. Despite technical limitations of the marketing claims, they have reduced the audience for their "historical conversations" from "all customers" to "malicious actors", which is a big step forward.

Snapchat created a multi-billion dollar market via centralized tech and money taken in on the promise they'll monetize it (or the data under EULA) somehow while giving app away for free and operating in a pseudo-police state. I was hesitant to think anything good would come of that after the main SMS and Facebook alternative I pushed for mass audience, WhatApp, was acquired by Facebook in one of largest acquisitions…

There are perennial claims that consumers don't want privacy, yet Snapchat used the carrot of ephemeral messaging to gain a large initial audience at the expense of Facebook and other competitors. That data point of market demand for non-persistence is valuable, regardless of Snapchat's motivation or the consequences of their technical implementation.

In the bigger picture, Snapchat can be viewed as Instagram v2, rather than WhatsApp v2. Instagram educated consumers on the use of filter-driven photography as content creation. Snapchat is extending that trajectory, with filter-driven videos being authored by kids in less than a minute. Where might that lead? AR in the style of Google-funded Magic Leap, i.e. animation overlays on filtered reality, which will inevitably be used for advertising, e.g. http://hyper-reality.co. They recently launched "connected" sunglasses.

Have you looked at http://matrix.org? They have telco funding and a long-term vision for OSS and decentralization, so are not subject to typical VC/startup pressures.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so. Decentralized services never took off very much because of tremendous technical difficulties with reliable NAT traversal/hole punching. Companies like Skype spent unbelievable efforts to get around these problems and kept them a closely guarded secret. There are a few more libraries now, but it's still surprisingly difficult to achieve reliable p2p connectivity without some external, centralized ser…

> my verdict is: technical reasons, mostly This conclusion is not really supported by the facts. The failure of decentralized VOIP services to achieve mass adoption was not due to technical reasons. Let us remember that SIP was standardized in RFC 2543 in 1999 and had a head start over Skype. The first STUN (Session Traversal Utilities for NAT) RFC 3489 to help solve the NAT traversal problem was published in 2003, t…

> This conclusion is not really supported by the facts.

Oh yes, it is. I have to wholeheartedly disagree with almost everything you've said, I'm afraid.

STUN requires a centralized outside server. As I said, by now there are better libraries that didn't exist ten years ago, but even they fail often. NATs behave very differently form implementation to implementation, some don't even get UPnP right, and it takes a lot of resources to get p2p reliable without special user interaction (e.g. with their home router) and without any server outside. AFAIK, there not no single library or method that works reliably without a server outside of the NAT. Also don't forget that I was talking about why decentralized p2p didn't take off, so we're talking about a of 1996-2010 not about now.

Adoption of technology does not work the way you describe, it works similarly to language change. It doesn't have much to do with resources of companies. Here is how it works in reality:

1.) If there is already an easy to use service that covers the functionality, new ones will likely fail. (Just like possible word compositions are often blocked when there is already a word for sth.)

2.) If end users cannot get it running within a few seconds, the technology will likely fail. (If it is intended for a mass market, I'm not talking about specialized tools or b2b software, of course.)

Decentralized p2p failed because of 1.) and 2.), and the reason for 2.) was primarily the lack of a cross-platform, reliable way to punch holes through NATs.

All of the examples you give fall under 1.) or 2.) respectively. On the other hand, Bitcoin is a typical example of p2p that satisfies both conditions, and that's why it was successful.

But there are are more conditions (though not the ones you suggest). One major factor was also that for an ISP, it's most desirable not to see strange server traffic from their ordinary, non-business end-consumers. So even if you succeed with NAT and complicated network topology issues, ISPs might still mess with the traffic or even block it. In fact, some infamous ISPs even disallowed running servers at any non-standard ports for some time, and used other methods to limit the Internet to passive web consumation for their customers. My ISP in the late 90s, for example, used PPP over ADSL for no technical reason, and switched off the connection once a day for no technical reason other than making it a bit harder to get a continuous server to work. And let's also not forget that most consumers nowadays are behind ADSL, where upload speed is usually limited 10 times less than download speed. That alone makes p2p harder.

Again, all mostly technical reasons. By the way, the Linux Desktop is also not successful for mostly technical reasons, contrary to what you claim. First, there is the application barrier maintained by commercial companies - a technical issue that could easily be overcome if besaid companies would work on interoperability standards (they do the opposite, of course). Second, there are numerous issues with usability on Linux that will never be resolved, because they would require everyone in the Linux world to pull on the same string at the same time. But these issues are still technical in the sense that there would be technical solutions to them, if there was some sort of "benevolent Linux dictator" who could force every programmer to use a given API like Apple forces their developers.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#307

A real barrier to a decentralised web is the difficulty of installing software on a server. I know that sounds really mundane and inconsequential in the broader debate about a decentralised web, but consider the following... Imagine if installing a server-side chat app, message board, project management app, or CMS were as easy as installing a desktop app. In a desktop app, it's usually one click to start the install…

> A real barrier to a decentralised web is the difficulty of installing software on a server.

LOL.

Decentralised would mean the user installs software on his/her desktop/phone and it works as you think a server works. Thats all there is to it.

If you make "installing on a server" - somebody else computer easier, its not gonna be detentralised. Youll have shareing of peoples "apps" on a single server, and eventually Cloud is going to be invented. Look then how easy it is to run apps and install shit on other peoples computers.

Running "a server" is not any more difficult than running any other app, on Android or on Linux, the difference is pacman -S kwrite or pacman -S lighttpd, or picking "primitive ftpd" app and running it.

I think the real problem is that people think servers are some kind of magical computers, different from any other general purpose computers people are already using as clients.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#308
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say it's not trivial and there isn't a clear path. YouTube is not just a web server for videos. You can't set up a decentralized, P2P real-time streaming network (like webtorrent) to replace YouTube. Many of the features that make YouTube virally successful and a continuing platform are developed based on research produced by its analytics which sacrifice privacy to improve insights into what users care about…

> Many of the features that make YouTube virally successful and a continuing platform are developed based on research produced by its analytics which sacrifice privacy to improve insights into what users care about. I think you're overselling it. YouTube is successful predominantly because they originally had first mover advantage and now have a direct link from google.com. The problem decentralized services have is…

One minor point - they didn't have first mover advantage.

There were a lot of video sharing sites around before YouTube.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#309
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is precisely my argument. Make the normal web sufficiently oppressive, and the freedom provided by decentralization becomes so compelling that people switch to it.

Do you seriously expect that in dystopian scenario altenative going to be available? Even if decentralized services going to remain available do you think people will risk using them? Most likely they won't going to do that. This is proved by China and more extreme example of North Korea also available. Or just look at any country with totalitarian regime: they increase regulations really slowly so people "too busy"…

You have a point. What I imagine is that some underground "resistance" would develop and use such systems, and once the authoritarianism eventually collapses, the mainstream will then be afraid of centralization.

Take as an example the Germans' insistence on privacy, to extents that even seem ridiculous to a lot of people (e.g. the right to blur your house in Google maps), and then consider their historical context.

Re: A decentralized web would give power back to the people online

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> assassination Do you have any evidence that this ever happened?

First, I am speaking from my own browsing experience on the now-dead silkroad. Second, I'm not trying to disagree with you at all. It was to point out that there are definitely use cases for decentralized technologies where centralized systems can't go (although a lot have been negative so far)

I know you are not trying to disagree -- and if you were, that would also be fine, of course :)

Mine was not a rhetorical question. People keep mentioning assassination markets but it always sounds like a urban myth to me. I would like to know if there are documented cases or not.

Just because you see an advertisement on something like silk road, doesn't mean that it's not some kid playing pretend.

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