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We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

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Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#171

Post by light3 »

potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

>Okay, my mother worked as a child sweatshop laborer in Taiwan in the 60s, before the country bootstrapped itself out of abject, agrarian poverty, and I take issue with this. It's a straw man; her family was extremely poor, but not in danger of starvation. Without sweatshop labor she wouldn't have starved to death, but she also wouldn't have been able to go to school, get educated, get employed in a white collar job, and eventually move abroad. Anecdotes do not data make, but knee-jerk emotional reactions and weasel words don't help anyone.

Well thats leaps and bounds from what the article is portraying, in China university costs are around 15000 RMB / year minimum, a person working in such a factory would have to work for a whole year and save everything just to be able to afford one year in university. Furthermore, you would have to pass the national university entrance exam, which is very competitive. Finding jobs a white collar job as a university grad is now hard, as grads are a dime a dozen. And to go abroad you will have to be a top notch student, or have substantial capital - an even more preposterous proposition.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#172

Post by wallflower »

korch wrote: post #160
krschultz wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the other differences? I'll take 5 extra hours a week for keeping a much larger part of my pay after taxes and avoiding the unemployment they have. And I'm not a conservative at all, I'm one pushing for higher taxes when necessary, but even I think that hours at work is a terrible way to measure happiness at work. I had a 40 hour a week job and I hated it, now I have a 50 hour a week job and love it.

I'm sick of seeing the right-wing's tired old, sacred myth that "American's pay less taxes." It's total BS. While this isn't targeted directly at the poster, since you seem pretty open to figuring out the truth, but the hint of this myth is there. Why is it that everyone who trots out this myth feels like they can ignore the "non-tax" taxes of FICA(social security & medicare)? If you add in what you pay to FICA(socia…

40%

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTa...

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#173

Post by wallflower »

yic wrote: post #115

Whenever I see a sensational news like this about China I wonder if the journalist is sincerely stupid or purposely evil. The picture for showing "exhausted workers" is a joke: there is a tradition to have a nap after lunch in China so in many businesses the hour after lunch is basically off hours. The place my parents worked for have 2-3 hours of lunch break so everybody can go home and have a nap. In bigger cities…

> In bigger cities where people can't go home, people find convenient places for the nap

I often wonder why napping is not easily permitted in U.S. offices. The benefits of napping last way beyond where it is practiced in Kindergarten.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#174

Post by wallflower »

Sandman wrote: post #116
Locke1689 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really make sense. They probably live in a very poor region of China. If they weren't doing factory work they would probably be doing agricultural work to try and get money to help out their family. There's no "education" route for those in this situation.

Quite right. But don't you see that as a problem? Shouldn't kids in China have equal opportunities as their American and European counterparts? Shouldn't they be allowed to get an education instead of working on an assembly line or in the field?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/world/asia/13exam.html

Basically, not scoring high enough on the most important test almost automatically slots you into not going to university and having to work in a factory. The U.S. is different because post-secondary or college education is almost accessible for everyone.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#175

Post by wallflower »

lsc wrote: post #132
watmough wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese labor is competing and slaughtering the US machines. There was a story on feats of Chinese manufacturing on YC not long ago, showing a guy sewing Chumby covers in 4 seconds flat. No machine could do that. If you go look at HobbyCity, there are 30 gram brushless motors that are efficient, and can suck down 9 amps. Great for powering foamies, and most likely built and wound by hand. Cost $9 and up. It's hard to…

"Chinese labor is competing and slaughtering the US machines." Sure, on the things that humans do better than robots, like sewing chumbies. My understanding is that china imports a whole lot of manufactured parts (computer chips, etc..) does the final assembly step (the one where humans can compete with machines) and exports the result. Some people say that much of our trade imbalance with china should be re-assigned…

> For example, I'm typing this on a Lenovo brand thinkpad; It was Assembled in China by a Chinese company.

Can we make an argument that Walmart is a middleman between China and American consumers?

"Everyday, Low, Low Prices"

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#176

Post by codexon »

potatolicious wrote: post #167
codexon wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like the old "walking uphill bothways" tripe to me: My father/mother/uncle lost a limb/eyeball/lung and were happy about it too, so they shouldn't even complain. Sweatshop trinkets are not a requirement for industrialization or lucrative economies.

"My father/mother/uncle lost a limb/eyeball/lung and were happy about it too, so they shouldn't even complain." That's not what I said, please to be not putting words in my mouth? kthx. "Sweatshop trinkets are not a requirement for industrialization or lucrative economies." Straw man - "sweatshop" labor produces a whole lot more than mere trinkets and souvenirs - they are, in this case, producing valuable electronics…

That's not what I said, please to be not putting words in my mouth? kthx.

You are trying to one-up illumin8 to support your argument that sweatshop labor was good. This is the gist of your argument: Your parents suffered even more and said it was great, so illumin8's argument is invalid.

Straw man - "sweatshop" labor produces a whole lot more than mere trinkets and souvenirs - they are, in this case, producing valuable electronics in great demand elsewhere.

I think we can live without the 4th or 5th shoddily crafted electronic mouse or hand-held gaming device so someone can profit by a couple of cents.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#177

Post by Locke1689 »

Sandman wrote: post #116
Locke1689 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really make sense. They probably live in a very poor region of China. If they weren't doing factory work they would probably be doing agricultural work to try and get money to help out their family. There's no "education" route for those in this situation.

Quite right. But don't you see that as a problem? Shouldn't kids in China have equal opportunities as their American and European counterparts? Shouldn't they be allowed to get an education instead of working on an assembly line or in the field?

It's a problem, but unsolvable in China's current state. This is a problem that cannot be repaired by the United States.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#178

Post by codexon »

potatolicious wrote: post #168
codexon wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like your beef is with the KMT, not the Japanese The Japanese were the ones who empowered the KMT, and they were the ones who took away the crops. They were so empowered by the Japanese, it took several decades before political opposition could be built against them. > Then what did it need? Imaginary capital investments in our many fine local delicacies? It didn't need sweatshops. Taiwan would have recov…

How did the Japanese empower the KMT? When the Japanese left Taiwan after WW2 the incumbent Chinese government (KMT) took over. How did they actively help the KMT in any way? > "that was being concentrated and wasted by the Japanese entrenched upper-class." You mean KMT-entrenched upper-class... I'm still not sure what socioeconomic imbalances in post-war Taiwan have much at all to do with the Japanese. A large porti…

How did the Japanese empower the KMT? When the Japanese left Taiwan after WW2 the incumbent Chinese government (KMT) took over. How did they actively help the KMT in any way?

I already explained this. They appropriated land, crops, and positions of power from people like my relatives. When the bulk of the KMT took over shortly after Japan left, they didn't return the land to previous owners. The wealth was never redistributed back.

When you have $1, it is much easier to be taken advantage of than when you have $1000.

Keep in mind also, we did invest in extremely lucrative industries, including the at-the-time burgeoning electronics manufacturing industry. The expertise in semiconductors developed via production industries

Many of those industries were "bootstrapped" by families who had money and never worked in a sweatshop.

No offense, but I think you've really got a hate-on for the Japanese, because a huge portion of what you seem to have against the Japanese make much more sense when pinned (IMHO rightly) against the KMT.

How you manage to completely overlook the Japanese role in this is completely baffling. I give up trying to explain to you the connection which really isn't very difficult to understand.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#179

Post by seabee »

codexon wrote: post #176
potatolicious wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My father/mother/uncle lost a limb/eyeball/lung and were happy about it too, so they shouldn't even complain." That's not what I said, please to be not putting words in my mouth? kthx. "Sweatshop trinkets are not a requirement for industrialization or lucrative economies." Straw man - "sweatshop" labor produces a whole lot more than mere trinkets and souvenirs - they are, in this case, producing valuable electronics…

That's not what I said, please to be not putting words in my mouth? kthx. You are trying to one-up illumin8 to support your argument that sweatshop labor was good. This is the gist of your argument: Your parents suffered even more and said it was great, so illumin8's argument is invalid. Straw man - "sweatshop" labor produces a whole lot more than mere trinkets and souvenirs - they are, in this case, producing valuab…

We can live without many things, but that's irrelevant if we still choose to consume them. Perhaps ethically they have no value but they sure have financial value, that's why they're being produced and sold, then bought by us. We give them their income.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#180

Post by elai »

potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

It's not that much different from many high schools it sounds. Or a minimum wager job. No talking, cellphones or listening to music while in class unless your on your break. Many schools confiscate cell phones on sight. Bag searches, body searches, locker searches, drug tests and metal detectors are typical in many schools. And you got to follow teachers orders or your marks (wages) are docked. They'll tolerate you being a bit of an ass if your productive though. Hell when I was a gas station attendant & hot dog cart worker working alone, I had to avoid washroom breaks altogether/as much as possible, and make them quick!

Also, you live in shared rooms / dorms at boarding schools too.

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