We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.
131–140 of 201 posts
Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think what we see is a (hopefully temporary) situation where there are people so poor that they are willing to work cheaper than machines. Because Americans are not going to go back to doing that work, it's not really a situation where Chinese labour is competing against American labour. the Chinese labour is competing against American /machines/
Chinese labor is competing and slaughtering the US machines. There was a story on feats of Chinese manufacturing on YC not long ago, showing a guy sewing Chumby covers in 4 seconds flat. No machine could do that. If you go look at HobbyCity, there are 30 gram brushless motors that are efficient, and can suck down 9 amps. Great for powering foamies, and most likely built and wound by hand. Cost $9 and up. It's hard to…
Sure, on the things that humans do better than robots, like sewing chumbies. My understanding is that china imports a whole lot of manufactured parts (computer chips, etc..) does the final assembly step (the one where humans can compete with machines) and exports the result. Some people say that much of our trade imbalance with china should be re-assigned to other countries that sell the chips to china, where they are assembled into a final product and sold to the US.
For example, I'm typing this on a Lenovo brand thinkpad; It was Assembled in China by a Chinese company.
But, the CPU is made by intel (and nearly all Intel fabs are in the first world, many of them in the US.) and the ram and SSD is made in Korea. The LCD was also made in Korea. I haven't taken apart the battery assembly (which was assembled in china) but it would not surprise me at all if the Lithium Ion cells and the controller chips were made in Japan. It seems to me, then, that most of what I paid for my Lenovo was not actually being paid to China; China was just the cheapest place to aggregate and assemble all the components.
As time goes on, there will be more and more things a machine can do better than a human can; that is why I don't think it's a problem for the US that china has dramatically lower prices for rote labour. You can't get a high school student to hand-craft a microchip, no matter how hard you work them.
The other thing about China is that there is a huge gap between unskilled work and skilled work. Much larger than here. I mean, here, there is maybe a 10x-20x (give or take) difference between the hourly rates of our lowest-skilled workers and our highest skilled workers (I mean, if you discount managers.) In China, this difference is much greater; The very skilled workers are paid at almost 1/3-1/2 global parity. I'm helping a Chinese friend set up a hosting company in China, and he tells me that he's going to need to pay close to the equivalent of USD$40K a year for a good software engineer. (I mean, someone with a masters or better.) I mean, that's a lot less than US rates, but it's not pennies. Hell, It's slightly more than I paid myself last year.
Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
Very good comment. They are better off with these jobs than without them. Still, they should have some basic working conditions. Such as max 45hrs a week. 2 week vacation a year, etc.
Right, because working more than 45 hours a week is a crime against humanity and here in the civilized West nobody ever works more than that rollseyes I have a cushy office job but the friends from my adolescent years are now mostly blue collar.workers. Those who have their own businesses (one-man shops: plumbing, construction contractors, painters, those type of jobs) work 50 to 60 hours a week, plus client meetings…
Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't have to buy, but if you want what they are freely offering quite frankly I don't see where Apple (I'm using Apple as example, I mean Apple et al) is wrong. Apple should under no circumstances be held accountable for China's inability (or unwillingness) to regulate its economy. And yes, you absolutely have to regulate both the supply and the demand, it's just WHO has to be doing the regulating. China is no f…
So,for example, if a family need money and they sell their young little girl as a prostitute, just to make money, you know, but in a country where the State is not so hard in fighting that behavior, the "buyer" should under no circumstances be held accountable for that Country's inability (or unwillingness) to regulate its economy? I think your point of view it's too simplistic and auto-absolving.
As for prostitution, if the family doesn't need the money to eat and survive that is one thing, and actually based on the economic specifics going on there I don't actually think it's relevant. If they are selling their daughter for hunger/survival, well it really sucks but we with cushy lives forget that survival is actually the most important thing. In that case, sadly, the buyer is supporting the local economy. (hello downvotes...)
Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
My mother-in-law worked in a factory in Taiwan in the 1960s. They didn't believe in providing ear protection to their workers and the loud machinery caused her permanent hearing loss in both ears that she still suffers from to this day. She can only hear out of one ear with a hearing aid, and her family has to shout at her just to barely communicate. Apparently you have no idea how bad it really is there. Here in the…
> " They didn't believe in providing ear protection to their workers and the loud machinery caused her permanent hearing loss in both ears that she still suffers from to this day." My mother lost a segment of her right middle finger, and my grandfather eventually died of hazardous substances breathed in during his work. My father survived a chlorine tank breach by a hair - a low wall was the only thing between him an…
So she couldn't even properly flip-off her manager when she quit? That sucks.
Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pray tell, what is it exactly about the conditions described in the article that is "inhumane"? I don't see anywhere that people are being forced to work more than 8 hours, on the contrary it clearly states that overtime is optional. Most of the points that are made in the article are standard practice in factories here in Western Europe, like timed bathroom breaks, can't use phones while working etc. The photos are…
Overtime here is not mandatory, but employers have an obligation to pay a wage suitable to their employees' dignity as fellow human beings -- not necessarily their country's minimum wage; and from the article, it does not sound like 770 RMB/month -- nor even 1500 RMB/month -- are at this level. (Also note the manipulative use of fines and wage witholdings, which no one has commented on as yet on HN.) These problems,…
Secondly, I can't comment on how much money the guy from the article is making or how much purchasing power that represents. However it does seem that he needs to support not only himself, but also his parents, plus save up for a bride price, a practice itself instigated by years of dysfunctional demographic control policies. I would estimate that only the top 20 or so percentiles of youth in their 20's in the West make enough money to support themselves, their parents AND save up for a significant expense. (I'm not very familiar with the current marriage market in China but I've read that in some areas prices of $5000 are being paid. That would represent several years worth of (average) salary. How many people in their 20's in the West do YOU know who can save up 150k in a few years?) So all in all the elevated need for income seems to come from externalities. While unfortunate for this worker, and I sympathize with his hardships, I think no reasonable person will argue that he should be paid according to his 'need' (use of vocabulary of a certain flawed economic system intentional)
Again, I'm not saying that because 'we' (Westerners) have something that that makes it right; but again in this case, it seems like this guy faces the same challenge that many young people in the West face, and while many of us like to complain (myself included), I would not argue that this is imposing 'inhumane conditions' upon us.
Then, about the work safety regulations - fining people for getting hurt is not right. The article does seem though like they had to go out of the way to find an example of such an instance. On top of that, not only the worker was fined, also the management, and the worker was re-hired. Still no excuse for unsafe working conditions, but again if this is the worst example they could find, I'd say they're doing quite OK. We can't really tell from the article if it's really unsafe, and I have a hunch the author would've let us know if he knew just one more way to make it seem like a horrible factory.
Lastly, the sexual harassment. For this, too, there is no excuse; on the other hand, it's quite easy for something to be labeled 'sexual harassment' nowadays. The article only says "Some security guards sexually harass the young women, often using very provocative language." which seems to suggest that in the most extreme cases, they use "very provocative language". Again without details this is hard to judge but it hardly seems to be the daily gang rape that the rest of the article suggests it is.
(Let me be clear, for the record, that no form of sexual harassment, in any place or form, is ever OK. However there are gradations of sexual harassment and my point is that from what we can tell from the article, the worst that happens is in the same class of behavior as mild picking on a colleague - not acceptable, but not the worst either, in the broad moral spectrum).
So in closing (at last...), my original point still stands. If the facts in the article (of which there are few, in between all the rhetoric) are correct, and if these facts are interpreted in context, even when contrasted with so-called 'advanced nations', there seems to be very little that is out of the ordinary (if not up for some improvement, as is the case anywhere), and certainly not as "dehumanizing" or exploitative as the author wants to make us believe.
(sorry for the long ramble :) )
Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.
#137Industrial Revolution repeating itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution#Social_ef... Is a phase like this required for developing nations to pass through? Specifically, large developing nations? Or could it be skipped, or at least have its negative human effects mitigated?
Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right, because working more than 45 hours a week is a crime against humanity and here in the civilized West nobody ever works more than that rollseyes I have a cushy office job but the friends from my adolescent years are now mostly blue collar.workers. Those who have their own businesses (one-man shops: plumbing, construction contractors, painters, those type of jobs) work 50 to 60 hours a week, plus client meetings…
These people are working 15 hour shifts and they work 6.25 days a week. That means they are working over 90 hours a week; every week. I can't believe you actually compare that with the conditions in the west. The marginal cost for the employee of each additional hour is huge. Big difference between working 40 hours with frequent overtime and 90 hours a week.
Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Privileged white collars shocked and dismayed that blue collar work can really, really suck. News at 11." Your comment made me think: Privileged white collar shows complete disregard for those that have it worse. News at 11.
Despite what you might think, I'm no Ayn Rand-quoting objectivist ;) What I do think is that this article makes much ado about nothing - sweatshop labor permitted my parents' generation to pull themselves out of poverty, get educated, and get white collar jobs - in fact my mother and all of her siblings eventually all got white collar, comfortable desk jobs. What we're looking at is a country in a natural evolutionar…
That may have been possible in the 1960s, but it's certainly not going to happen for 99% of these workers now. There is way more menial, blue-collar labour to be done than white-collar work, and there are less jobs than there are people already.
Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.
#140If they choose to stay at the job it means it's because they want to - by definition they want the money more than they want to leave the job, otherwise they'd leave.
If anyone wants to go there and provide better opportunities to lure these workers away from Microsoft, they are free to do so. There is a market for labor just as with any other product. But until then, Microsoft is offering these people the best job at the best wage available to them, so we have no grounds to criticize.