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RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

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Re: RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those not "in the know," what capability is that? Everything I hear implies a focus on ease of use: Easy replication/distribution, JS API, single number type (float64), usefulness when teaching novices, etc.

RethinkDB's niche is allowing a service to listen for changes to a dataset. As in, your Node application could listen for published events by Rethink, rather than your Node application long-polling the dataset for changes. "Real Time" data analytics can then be performed.

I've never done it, but I think it's possible to do this in Postgres as well using LISTEN and NOTIFY. You may want to do all of your database mutations through functions that ultimately call NOTIFY for this to work though. But uh, that's how you'd do it in postgraphql or postgrest anyway.

https://github.com/calebmer/postgraphql

http://postgrest.com/

Re: RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that you make the comparison to operating systems, since Linux is open and completely free and doesn't have a big company behind it. (Granted, I think the big difference is that Linux doesn't have as many competitors as exist for DBs today.)

> Linux is open and completely free and doesn't have a big company behind it Only small companies like IBM and Google who have put hundreds of millions of dollars into it.

The important part is it doesn't have "a" big company behind it. Contrast with Android. It is free and open and Amazon and others have forked it and used it. But the situation is not the same.

If Google tomorrow drops out and doesn't want to contribute to Linux kernel, no big deal. IBM and Redhat will. If those don't want, others will.

Re: RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

#43

To understand what happened to RethinkDB, you want to contrast it with MongoDB. RethinkDB is amazing software and a real breakthrough. And the audience of deep thinking people who can really leverage the event model is ... limited. Today. MongoDB is no breakthrough, but there are legions of people who just want to plug something together with PHP or Node. Given what they're doing, it works fine. I sincerely hope Reth…

Disclaimer: I have a bro crush on Ben Horowitz.

Exactly, they gave it a good go as a company but their burn rate was likely too high/too soon and differentiation insufficient (whether lack of actual novel features and/or communicating advantages in marketing). For example, a polar opposite of something like Couchbase which is used by giant enterprise shops to move away from Memcache and/or CouchDB.

It was also competing in a way Peter Thiel and Paul Graham warn about. Reinventing something without a vital quantum of improvement is like trying to juggle while climbing Half Dome.

I hope Rethink lives on as open source and adds MongoDB support. If they can hustle to encourage more people to try it by selling its obvious advantages, they have a slim but nonzero chance of rebooting.

Next time, gotta find more paying, alpha customers first and then start building. Then, try VC only after being capital-constrained when hiring/expansion/development is a blocker to realizing imminent profit. New category brands and segment-optimized products are riskier but more likely to be able to set up moats with defensible, competitive value.

Re: RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

#44
The business model that the SageMath guy failed to consider was the "Money at the End of the Rainbow" model used by Spring, JBoss and MySQL.

His comment about licensing was also interesting:

"At a bare minimum, I think they must switch to a very liberal license (Apache instead of AGPL)"

Re: RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

#45
I'm watching this very closely since I am a founder of another OSS-based company doing something very hard and trying to monetize via things like services, support, etc.

(Ironically we just ported the new version of our SaaS code base to RethinkDB! We plan to stick with it. It's too nice, and I'm optimistic it'll find an OSS home.)

I'm anxiously awaiting the postmortem, but my sense (albeit from a distance not knowing anyone involved) is that their failure resulted from an underlying assumption that they'd always be able to raise more money as easily and quickly as they had in the past.

As a result they deferred marketing and monetization strategy too long and ran a burn rate that was too high. When the money didn't come they couldn't sustain what IMHO could have otherwise been a fantastic business. If they'd had a little more time to build out Horizon and some of their other efforts, I think they would have made it.

It makes me feel a little bit vindicated for taking the contrarian (to some) position of hugging "default alive" instead of hiring for what feels like the sake of hiring. A good fraction of the Silicon Valley people I talk to (founders, VCs, etc.) have consistently encouraged us to spend more and increase head count, etc., sometimes on the argument that this would make us look better to investors.

Personally I'm concerned more with looking better to customers and surviving. The whole thing just seems bizarre and irrational to me even when I try to put myself in a VC's shoes. If I saw two companies with roughly equivalent stacks and growth and one was burning cash at half the rate of the other, would it make sense for me to choose to invest in the more expensive of the two?

Of course not being in Silicon Valley also helps us keep our burn really low... and I've had people say there's no way we can possibly succeed without being there. So hey, we're either smart or doomed. We'll see.

Re: RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

#46
post #8

Other successful companies have used this business model. Mobile is the most common use case for a real-time DB. They didn't provide good iOS and Android integration. Technically Rethink is superior to Firebase, but Firebase is more successful.

Only used Firebase before, why Technically Rethink is superior to Firebase?

Re: RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

#47

To understand what happened to RethinkDB, you want to contrast it with MongoDB. RethinkDB is amazing software and a real breakthrough. And the audience of deep thinking people who can really leverage the event model is ... limited. Today. MongoDB is no breakthrough, but there are legions of people who just want to plug something together with PHP or Node. Given what they're doing, it works fine. I sincerely hope Reth…

Just going out on a limb here, and I know neither MongoDB or RethinkDB (nor the companies behind them) very well.

But, from what you're saying it almost sounds like that RethinkDB would be a great companion to MongoDB. And if so, that the company behind MongoDB might be a great custodian for RethinkDB.

Re: RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

#48

Why didn't rethinkdb offer a paid scaleable hosted solution similar to Amazon RDS? Seems like a straightforward business model.

That's what I'm wondering as well. Having done amazing work to make replication and sharing work the right way, it would've been a straightforward way to make it run reliably (managed) on AWS and such to productize it and make some money.

Re: RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RethinkDB's niche is allowing a service to listen for changes to a dataset. As in, your Node application could listen for published events by Rethink, rather than your Node application long-polling the dataset for changes. "Real Time" data analytics can then be performed.

I've never done it, but I think it's possible to do this in Postgres as well using LISTEN and NOTIFY. You may want to do all of your database mutations through functions that ultimately call NOTIFY for this to work though. But uh, that's how you'd do it in postgraphql or postgrest anyway. https://github.com/calebmer/postgraphql http://postgrest.com/

You can definitely use LISTEN and NOTIFY to watch for changes in Postgres. Here's a presentation I did on that last year, though oriented more towards web apps than analytics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsorlkAF83s

For analytics I would want stronger guarantees than LISTEN and NOTIFY alone can provide. I explore options for that here: http://btubbs.com/streaming-updates-from-postgres.html

Re: RethinkDB, SageMath, Andreessen-Horowitz, Basecamp and Open Source Software

#50
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen that in any db I've worked with. If that's true, that's pretty huge.

Firebase works like that. The polling of databases is a really obvious limitation of existing databases once you see the alternative. (I work at Firebase)

Has Firebase been through Aphyr's Jepsen tests?
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